Wiens Mandolins Dirty Laundry

[MandoCowboy]

Wiens Mandolins has some serious issues as this website declares

http://www.custominstrumentwatchdog.com/

Jamie Wiens labled as a "Poster Child" for being unscrupulous.

Check it out.

[R. Kane]

It would be nice for the builder to have a chance to respond here if he chooses to, before this thread gets locked down. I've certainly been on the unhappy side of architectural and construction engagements; and public leverage like this would have been helpful. Let's hope that the parties get everything worked out to mutual satisfaction, and outstanding mandolins and smiles result.

[Chris Biorkman]

Wow. That sucks. This thread is going to get locked.

[Scott Tichenor]

This violates board posting guidelines. While we're fully aware of issues some of his customers have expressed, we do not take sides in these matters.

Specifically:

- Using the board to malign or leverage personal advantage in a conflict is strictly forbidden. Though intent or motivation are not always provable, the moderators reserve full right in deeming whether or not comments made are consistent with policy, and may take action to edit, delete, or when necessary, revoke posting privileges.

[Scott Tichenor]

I'm making a difficult decision to re-open this discussion and to allow it to continue because additional issues have recently come to my attention. I'd like to say this is the first time I've seen reference to this subject matter, but it isn't, and I think it's time everyone had their say.

Understand why it's rare that we will allow this to move forward. It's against board policy to leverage the forum for disputes against others. We are often asked for permission to "vent" in the forum when it's clear the best solution is direct and private communication between parties to resolve problems. Unfortunately, I do not see that as a solution here. Do not mistake this as a change in our guidelines, only a situation that requires a response clearly out of the ordinary.

The builder in question was notified of this action in advance and is welcome to respond. Or not. I have not made attempts to contact other parties involved.

I've notified Ted Eschliman, our lead moderator, and asked he instruct the other moderators to monitor this discussion, as will I. We will vigorously enforce existing guidelines and ask that everyone stick to the facts and that they do so with the knowledge that we will not tolerate inappropriate and unacceptable comments.

[AlanN]

Goodness, what a messy mess.

Many years ago, this builder said he would build me a copy of my old F-5, if I would send that old F-5 to him. I didn't.

[fred d]

Time for some old fashion justice like the 40th break his hands

[Jim MacDaniel]

[Larry S Sherman]

I hope that whatever has happened will be resolved. He makes some amazing instruments. Dan B's F-5 is a beauty. I've always hoped to get a Weins someday.

[mandroid]

Maybe he got too much "is it done yet" ?? too often.

a big car full of big Kids .. "are we There Yet"??

Over sold his waiting list.

[Mike Bunting]

Maybe he got too much "is it done yet" ?? too often.

a big car full of big Kids .. "are we There Yet"??

Over sold his waiting list.

No, that's not it. I'm from western Canada and though I haven't commented (and won't again) I have heard enough over the years to say that this is not unexpected.

[JGWoods]

I've got no dog in this fight. I just wonder sometimes why some builders don't just stop taking orders, build what they want to and put it up for sale.
I think once a guy has a 2 year plus waiting list he's got a problem, maybe even 1 year is too long.

If a person is a dedicated artist/builder it seems to me that a long list of waiting customers is a guaranteed headache. Better to build first, find the customer later.

[kirksdad]

Scott/Ted;

Thanks for letting this post stay. You may have helped the situation greatly. There have been a few threads here in the past six months talking about some of the builders practices, both good and bad, this builder was the subject of one of them. I'm very interested to hear Jaime's side of the story.

I truly understand that the builder deserves wide leeway, on their methods and build time frames, they are doing something the vast majority of us cannot do. This appears to be very much wrong.

There was a member who received a Wiens mandolin in this time frame....he posted pictures and talked about the experience, I wonder how his experience effects Walt and Jim's build ..........

[pickinNgrinnin]

I think it's a good thing you've decided to let this thread continue. Public pressure can often lead to good results. I consider this a public service to the Mandolin community. I'm not sure Jamie can explain his way out of this one. If he winds up losing his business/reputation as a result of his questionable practices, he has brought it upon himself. You reap what you sow.

[Chris Biorkman]

I think the circumstances, in this instance, merit further discussion of the topic, so I commend Scott for letting the conversation continue. I think it's necessary to prevent others from getting duped. A little over a year ago, I emailed Jamie to ask about his wait time and was told that it was two years, which it appears was not anywhere near the truth even back then. The builder may fancy himself an artist, but when you are taking people's money and making promises, like it or not, you are engaging in business and it is perfectly reasonable to expect a customer to hold you to account for the promises that you have made.

There is no doubt that Jamie is very talented, but if the facts stated on the link in the OP are true, he deserves every bit of the bad press that he is getting and more. It really surprises me that someone would be so unscrupulous considering how small the mandolin community is and how easily stories can spread via the internet. Hopefully he will chime in, but to me, there isn't much he could say to justify what he has supposedly done. Why deal with people like that when there are builders like Tom Ellis and Will Kimble out there who will build an instrument that is every bit as good and be courteous and straightforward about the process as well?

[Elliot Luber]

if the facts stated on the link in the OP are true, he deserves every bit of the bad press

That's the issue. How do you judge a few anonymous quotes?

If someone comes on this board and says they have a problem, then we can discuss it. But when some guy posts some anonymous allegations somewhere else, it's hard to say what the facts are.

Myself, I get annoyed at people who send me emails sometime and my response to one person may not be representative of how I treat the greater public. What's the context?

[Chris Biorkman]

I think it's highly suspicious that the builder hasn't responded to any of these allegations in previous threads, including one that he himself started. He undoubtedly knows that these stories are circulating. If it were me, and my integrity was falsely being called into question, I would vociferously defend myself. To me, his silence says something.

[jasona]

I think the disgruntled customers on the other web site should stop complaining online and start exercising their legal recourse if that is how they feel.

Otherwise, ditto Mike Bunting's post.

[Glassweb]

This sort of thing is a damn shame. It's obvious Jamie is an exceptionally talented luthier; however, very often great and eccentric talents are the absolute worst people to represent themselves. Perhaps he should consider having a rep (as many top builders have done/are doing). If his mandolins are as good as they appear to be, they'll get sold either way.

[Elliot Luber]

Perhaps that's wise advise. If he wants to be an artist and distance himself from the interpersonal business aspects, why not hand it off to someone.

[Chris Biorkman]

Perhaps that's wise advise. If he wants to be an artist and distance himself from the interpersonal business aspects, why not hand it off to someone.

Because he gets to take deposits this way perhaps.

[G. Fisher]

He has been removed from the builders list.

[Ivan Kelsall]

This is just bad news all round !. Bad for the builder himself & bad for his potential customers. IMHO,i think he needs to take a couple of steps back from this situation & re-consider his public stance as a builder who has (had) a great reputation. Personally,i sincerely hope that a man of such talent can re-assess his situation & get back on course,even if it means having to eat one or more pieces of 'humble pie'. It's been done many times before,usually by politicians,who seem to be unusually adept at shooting themselves in the foot. Ivan

[J. Wiens]

Hello everyone...After quite a little run of this ongoing melodrama, I feel that I should finally address it personally to assure those of you who may not see my silence on the matter as a form of grace or forgiveness, but perhaps as some confirmation of the accusations being made against me by a certain individual on this board . Before I do though, I'd like to first apologize to all of you who've had to put up with the seemingly never-ending threads regarding me & my “bad business dealings”. There's so many more interesting things to read about here on the mandolincafe than the soap opera of “which guy doesn't have their mandolin yet and why?” Having a client of mine go sideways on me and drag my name out in public is embarrassing enough, but I hate that it's taken away from your otherwise positive learning and social experience here on the cafe. So for that, I'm sorry.

Hopefully most of you can see what's happened here. In a nutshell, I'm late in completing an instrument for a client and he's upset.

It's not the first time I've been late with an instrument order, and to be perfectly honest, I've been late with just about every custom instrument I've ever built for anyone. I'm famous for it.....I'm not particularly proud of that, but at the same time I know that this trait is nothing new in the world of creative endeavor...It is, whether you or I like it or not, the nature of the beast. As long as there's been passionate craftsmen making object d 'art with the best of intentions, there's been people getting upset because the thing wasn't done when it was supposed to be. In my time making instruments, I've seen all kinds of behaviors from all kinds of people who are anxious about their instrument not being completed on time. From family members, to my best friends, to people I've never met or spoken to..There's a few basic behaviors. There's subtle hostility of all kinds, frustrated crazy emails, withholding of funds, some cancel their orders, some offer legal threats....Heck I've even had a letter from a client's psychiatrist one time! So As someone who's been down this road many times, I think I have enough understanding of these behaviors that I can, and do try to help my clients through these feelings whenever they surface.

However having said all that, I don't think I need to point out that the particular client in question is behaving in an extreme and unscrupulous manner beyond anything that is reasonable.


I'm generally a pretty firm believer in “Don't complain & never explain”, So I wouldn't normally get into all the minutiae of my dealings with anyone in public. However in my own defense, because of the accusatory things that are being said by this person, I will give you all the broad strokes.
Suffice it to say that an instrument was ordered in 2007 with a projected completion date of spring 2009. Unfortunately I had a really unexpected rough spot in my personal life in 2008 which I am only now recovering from ...It definitely slowed me down. I explained to this person in late 2008 that due to that rough spot, that things were going slower than hoped,..I received nothing but encouragement and support from him . However by Spring 2009 that encouragement had somehow slowly turned into hostility. After a half dozen hostile & threatening emails over several weeks that spring, and a refusal to call me to sort it out, I finally phoned him, hoping we could resolve the issue. Despite an hour spent on the phone trying to talk things through...It was clear that there would be no reasoning with him. He cancelled his order the following day. Another long phone call ensued.....I explained that I didn't have the money to refund him immediately and that it'd take some time to find the right client to take his place. He agreed to give me 3 weeks to come up with the money and spelled out to me that after that, his pride wouldn't allow this kind of sleight and that there would be consequences.

That brings us up to now... To my knowledge thus far he has A; sent out a sinister-sounding mass email to many of my family, friends and clients. B: posted ads here in the cafe classifieds to sell “his build slot” which I explicitly forbid him to do over the phone C: Started smear threads ..one of which you are now reading..Which of course serve to scare my present and future clientele and make life and income difficult for me. And now last but not by any means least, D: he seems to have has created an actual website under the guise of a legitimate "custom instrument watchdog" in which he attempts to paint some picture of me as a fraud artist.....Heh! Who said this work isn't glamorous?


What am I doing about it? For starters I've announced on my website that as of June 2009 that I will no longer accepting orders for instruments from anyone. This ensures I wont' be in this situation again after I'm through my present order list.

Wiens instruments will simply be available as they are completed and you may put your name on a waiting list for a small fee. I arrived at this decision, not just because of the individual who is presently rocking the boat. ..though he helped make it an easy one....but also because of other negative interactions with people in the past. You see, I'm really not interested in upsetting people...I only want to make instruments and get better at making them every day, and after enough time spent building these instruments one thing I know, is that I can never know. Meaning that I've learned that no matter how long or how ofter I've done this work, that there will always be something that will go sideways or badly or otherwise surprise me....Something will always take twice or five times as long as you think...something will always have to be redone or thrown out..Without fail.

So rather than continue to cross my fingers and hope that I can meet an optimistic deadline I've made, and then torturing my clients with uncertainty after that deadline passes for whatever reason. I think a much better idea is to not involve other people in my creative process at all. To make my business not about custom instruments for certain individuals..After all ..these things usually get traded or sold to other people eventually. So I plan to simply make instruments and allow those who wish to, acquire the work when it is complete. This way we're all happy and can continue on our merry way in life.

What about this individuals instrument order and his money? As of Jan 18th, I have made arrangements for the sale of his instrument when it is completed ( FYI It requires a fretboard and inlay and then it's on to finishing ) There's been no money exchanged with the new buyer at my request, and at the time of sale, the client in question will receive a refund once he's signed a release of contract . Since the instrument is spoken for now, I'd like to request that the webmaster here on the cafe not allow any more ads for the “Wiens build slot” from this person.

That's about it. I'd like to thank those of you who have been supportive through this time despite the hoopla. Anyone who has any questions about what I've said here please feel free to call or email me.

Sincerely

Jamie Wiens

[goldtopper]

In any other business, this builder would have to hide from customers kicking 5k out of his butt.
"Artist" for too long has been used as an excuse to be difficult, elite and not subject to conventional rules of trade.
Got problems? Fine, be honest and return the money, otherwise shut up and put your nose to the grindstone.