Mandocello Measurements

[Bernie Daniel]

OK LOL.

Actually the thought that the middle one could be altered image -- that did cross my mind.

My assumption was that image 1 and 3 were real and the middle one was created from the other two and that the cut was included to provide a clue as to how you did it -- which is why I asked about a circular saw.

Still if the images are close to scale its instructive.

Two things is that correct the image on the left is guitar you started with and one on the right the finished mandocello, i.e., these are real photos? and

But I'm still interested in how you trim off the material from the neck when it is still attached to the body. I assume you used some kind of cutting tool and not a rasp or plane?

[Bernie Daniel]

Just noticed on re-look that the strings end mysteriously at the nut on both cellos images

So only one real pic then -- but it still begs the question -- how does one best cut down the neck? Thanks.

[Paul Hostetter]

Two things is that correct the image on the left is guitar you started with and one on the right the finished mandocello, i.e., these are real photos?

One real photo, amended with Photoshop.

But I'm still interested in how you trim off the material from the neck when it is still attached to the body. I assume you used some kind of cutting tool and not a rasp or plane?

Rasps and files, and sanding blocks, etc. Not much material really comes off.

You can get big double-cut machine files that are nearly as coarse as a rasp that really don't care about frets. You define the nut width first, draw a line from the body join to the outsides of the ideal new nut width, and do the edges first, with the big files. Once you’re past the metal, you can use nice rasps and so on to refine the rest of it.

I have never photographed my own rig for doing this, but it's not much different than shaping a new neck. You clamp the neck to a support which, in my usual scenario, is attached to and extends out from a big stable work table. Unlike a new neck, it has the whole guitar still attached, so you have to generate some gentle support for that. Basically it's something like this:



...but projecting out from a table so I can get at it from all sides. Like this:



You go from rasps to finer rasps, then to sanding blocks, using finer and finer abrasives, and then you refinish the neck.

It's axiomatic that you draw a line and cut to it. This really means, in this particular case, that you draw the line and abrade close to it. Planes and shapers and shaves are not very suitable.

The finish sanding always takes away material, so work carefully. Otherwise you risk having it be smaller at the end of the line than you intended.

[mandomania7923]

when i said that, i wasn't very clear, it is tuned CGDA, but the bottom 2 sets are octaves, so the C is a 'cello c for the bottom one and instead of being tuned in unison, it has a 'dola c to match it. idk if i'm explaining that right, but it's pretty cool. i played this at grey fox and IBMA, the instrument is outstanding and Fletcher did an outstanding job on it.

Pretty sure that's an octave. Here's a quote from a previous thread:

[Bernie Daniel]

Paul -- great how to post! Thanks for the info -- I'm sure it took some considerable time to construct it.

I don't this I have the right clamping jig at my house but I know who does here in town. This is something, with this much info., I'm sure I could do.

But these kind of issues always seem to have another road leading away to another possible plan.

The thought occurs -- if I am going to all the trouble of slimming down that neck I'll probably really like the conversion as it sounds really good the playability was the only drawback.

So maybe I ought also consider removing the neck -- cutting it down and then re-setting it with some extra reinforcement in consideration of the fact that the neck and bridge now will have 8 strings instead of the four that it was designed for?

Anyway the mission is, on way or another, to trim that nut and fingerboard down to Gibson mandocello dimensions.

Thanks again.

[Dobe]

I've thinned necks while still on the body. You of course cannot thin it at the body join, but just at the nut. This is surprisingly effective, if not perfect. You don't need to change anything about the headstock.

I converted a 60's Gibson B-12 that way. Simply started w/the sanding belt to get it close to specs from a teens Gib Cello & then feathered it in at the body & headstock. It wasn't the most valuable box to start with so I went all the way: chopped off the extra 4 tuner holes & re-attached the headstock (don't cringe it woked really well !) and of course removed the back to eliminate the excess X bracing (and scallop). Tweaked up the bridgepin holes, some tounge oil & voila ! I loved it as an octive but eventually sold it as a cello to a very satified customer. Didn't really like the Low C but I'm thinking of trying again with a cheap 6-string. Think I got bit by the Cello bug !

[Paul Hostetter]

Those Gibson 12s had a rather short scale. No wonder the C was a disappointment.

[Michael Lewis]

The Monteleone mandocello of Mike Marshall's has a 25" scale.

[ollaimh]

I'd like to chime in with my opinion that the Gibson mandocello had a scale much too short to support a C string. Real cellos—the bass of a string quartet—have a 27" scale. Gibson's mandocello scale was 24.5" - arguably too short even for an E note, much less a C, and even shorter than their guitars of that era. That scale was/is ideal for octave mandolin, but tepid for cello pitches. Theoretically you can increase the string gauge to compensate for the scale, but the results usually tell you that the thicker string just sounds thuddy.

You don't normally play chords on a mandocello—it's a single note instrument like its violin family relative. If you want the most authoritative sound from a mandocello over the whole range of the four courses, please consider a 27" scale.

This woman plays a 24+"-ish scale, quite close to a Gibson mandocello scale, but tuned (appropriately) GDAE:



Her instrument is known in Europe and environs as a mandole.

And for something else to think about, here's my Greek laouto, a mandocello with a 28.5" scale!



Steel strings, gut frets, hurts like h*ll to play, but what a sound!

that's a great looking greek laoto, looks like it might be made by anastasios stathoupoulo. is it? i have one by a. stathoupoulo

[Paul Hostetter]

Mine was made in 1953 by Yiorgos Grachis. In San Mateo, California. It's a beauty.

[ollaimh]

Mine was made in 1953 by Yiorgos Grachis. In San Mateo, California. It's a beauty.

what is the scale length? i am tunning up my stathoupoulo and busted a string about ten minutes ago. i previously played alarger cretan laouto. and where do you get strings?

yours looks very much like he was influenced by stathoupoulo. i thought the bridge and rosette and the head lionwere very similar

[Paul Hostetter]

My Grachis has a scale of 28.5"—longer than most, which is why I said it hurt to play. String gauges are light: 10s on top, the wound ones are a 25 and a 40. I tune it like a mandocello sometimes: CGDA, or for Greek rhythm with the low course tuned up a step: DGDA, rather than the reëntrant tuning (low D up a full octave) often used. I make the set from singles. I have never broken a string.

Both Stathopoulo and Grachis came from similar backgrounds. You see those details, such as the gilded beast's head and so on, on laoutos by many makers back then.

Here's a photo of Grachis (holding the violin, at right) in his father's Chicago shop in 1910. The old man also had a shop in Athens at the same time. When young Yiorgos finished his apprenticeship with his father, he was told to go forth and find his own territory, so he chose California, which was (and is) crawling with Greeks who love music. He thrived here for many years. His instruments were very much like his father's. They made violins, bouzoukia, ouds, laoutos, santouria, mandolins, bows, you name it. The shop also sold accordions, brass instruments and so on. But they made all their string instruments.

[Paul Hostetter]

And here's a shot of a Greek picnic in about 1920, taken in Davenport, CA, about five miles from my house:



Who made those laoutos? Where are they now?

These images will be much larger if you open them in their own tab, BTW.

[Walt]

It's my first time visiting the builders forum in a long time, so I was pleasantly surprised to see this thread at the top of the list. I've been playing the 27" scale mandocello for several years now. And, yes, the low C sounds great with the long scale. It doesn't have the characteristic buzzing that you get from the traditional scale. Also, harmonics sound great on the 27" scale. I have been very happy with the longer scale, but there is an obvious drawback that players should consider--it's a stretch. It hurts. If you are contemplating a 27" scale, my advice would be to go play a 25" scale for an hour. If it feels comfortable, then maybe think about going for a 27" scale. If 25" feels like a stretch, don't even think about 27". Honestly, the buzzing that comes from the traditional scale isn't the worst thing in the world.
The other thing to think about with the longer scale is string gauges. For my tastes, the standard gauges do not work well with the 27" scale. There is just too much string tension. I have done a lot of experimenting with string gauges over the last six years, but unfortunately I didn't really keep track of everything. I think I landed on .070, .044, .030, .018. This felt much better, but I ran into problems with the wound .018 strings, which broke after a few minutes of playing. I then switched to .018 plain steel for the high A, which worked well. I also experimented some with single strings. If memory serves me correctly, the video below is the lighter gauges, the plain steel high A, and single strings. FYI, I'm back to 8 strings.

[Bernie Daniel]

That is terrific music. Do you have other video with 8 strings? I really like to hear how that mandocello that way also.
How big is that lower bout and who made that instrument --its a beauty. I am a little surprised that you say the "standard set" (meaning D'Addario J78s?) is too tight at 27" because most say they are too loose at 25"?

[Walt]

Thank you, Bernie. It was built by Joe Mendel. A great guy and a great luthier. I have a video of it with eight strings somewhere. I'll post when I find it. I don't know the lower bout dimensions, but I'll break out the tape measure and find out.
I might have misspoke (mistyped) above. The standard gauges are too TIGHT on the 27" scale. When I did have the D'Addario strings on there, I did experiment with tuning the mandocello down to Bb, F, C, G. It was pretty cool having a low Bb note.

[s11141827]

Thomastik even makes Special Flatwound strings designed for the shorter scale length of those Octave Mandolins (aka Tenor Mandolins) & Mandocellos & they achieved a good sound by using more advanced technology to make them.