Youtube of Dennis Cahill playing mandolin

[Dagger Gordon]

Here is a Youtube of Martin Hayes and Dennis Cahill which I hadn't seen before.

Dennis is playing what I think is a Collings MT2 mandolin, with f holes.

To my mind, that mandolin sounds as good as I've heard for Irish music, and shows that an f hole mandolin is at least as good as an oval hole for playing this stuff.

I play a similar mandolin, and I've been very pleased with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0ped...eature=related

[Bertram Henze]

To my mind, that mandolin sounds as good as I've heard for Irish music, and shows that an f hole mandolin is at least as good as an oval hole for playing this stuff.

Considering the Irish tradition of "make do with what you've got" and what a variety of instruments the Irish have integrated into their music without hurting its character, one should wonder what difference a hole could make anyway...

[M.Marmot]

Thanks for posting the link, I have wondered before what Mr. Cahill sounds like on mandolin, now i know... he sounds grand indeed.

I'm on my second listen as i'm typing this up and i have to say one thing, i dont know what sort of plectrum he is using, to my ears its a fairly hefty one, but theres some great passages where the plectrum noise seems to be serving up a nice additional rhthymic accompaniment, somewhere between a bodhran and a dancer rapping out the beat... I wonder is that deliberate?

As far as the hole debate goes, as far as i figure the mandolin is still finding its feet in Irish music and i dont see how anyone could be doctrinaire about it at this stage of the game. I think its down to the musician and their own imagination and capability of using the qualities of their respective instruments to serve the music. Each mandolin will bring its own qualities, as will each player, the key, for me is how they those qualities are used to interact with the source musics and other musicians.

[Rob Gerety]

I'm just learning about Irish music. I understand that traditionally it was played without accompaniment. There is something very pure when good melody players provide the rhythmic drive. Even though I play guitar I sometimes think our local session is more enjoyable to the listener (including myself) when there are no chord players. I suppose here the mandolin is providing some accompaniment but it is so subtle and tasteful. Very nice. Thanks for posting that video.

BTW - what is the name of that tune? It is Irish - right?

[M.Marmot]

I understand that traditionally it was played without accompaniment. There is something very pure when good melody players provide the rhythmic drive. Even though I play guitar I sometimes think our local session is more enjoyable to the listener (including myself) when there are no chord players.

Im no expert on the subject, and i'm always open to learning more, but from what i have picked up from noodling around the histories is that the rhythym heavy Irish music is a relatively recent innovation, the last forty or fifty years or so?

I think you'd be looking at Sweeny"s Men, The Bothy Band and Planxty, that sort of period as when rhythym started to become a more prominant factor in a performance. Its certainly from about that time that instruments like guitars, bouzoukis, and yes, even mandolins forced their way into the Irish traditional music scene.

Before that traditional music basically favoured melody instruments such as fiddle and flute, but even here you find debates as to what instruments are truely traditional, i think some folks see flutes as relative new comers when compared to the fiddle.

Other instruments which you may think of as distinctly Irish, such as harp and uillean pipes, were almost a dead tradition, i think the amount of uillean pipe players could be counted on a the finger of a fist at one stage, and it was only with the fifties/sixties folk revival that they managed to gain a new found appreciation and new players.

I have also heard that it was not unusual during the twenties and thirties to hear brass instruments, saxophones for instance, used in ceilidh dance bands, not unusual in itself given that there is a strong marching band tradition in Ireland, especially in the working class areas of irish towns and cities, also in this aspect the use of a snare drum is not unheard of in ceilidh bands.

As far as performaznce is concerned, i think it came in two varieties solo playing and groups for dancing.

The solo playing was strictly melody and apparently it was considered quite rude to even attempt to join in and accompany the performer. Saying that, there is also a case for small string ensembles in the style of chamber music... again its all debate and conjecture.

The dance performances would have also been far more concentrated on melody, the rhythym only being implied in the playing of the tunes but actually sounded out by the dancers 'battering' the rhythym with their feet as they danced. Apparently the dancers were the ones who would dictate the rythym and pace of each set and the quality of a good musician would be their ability to keep up with the dancers demands. That is to say, the tempo and rhythym could vary in a set or a tune depending on the dancers requirements.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDC2y...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYvU7...eature=related

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?...eature=related

Strangely, despite being obviously suggested in the names, jigs, reels, hornpipe, etc, i think that the connection between dancing and the tunes with Irish music has become more ambiguous over the years, but if you ever get to see some actual set dancing with good accompaniment, i think it somehow a shines a light some hidden characteritics of the music.

Anyway, sorry for the ramble, but you got me thinking :-)

On a slight connecting note, concerning the vagaries of what instruments and what holes are strictly trad...

Is it possible that F-style mandolins are frowned upon because they do not look folky enough?

That is that they dont fit the idea of an 'authentic' traditional instrument quite a snugly as the A-style mandolins with their Lute style looks?

[Rob Gerety]

[QUOTE=M.Marmot;777133]Anyway, sorry for the ramble, but you got me thinking :-)[/QUOTE

No need to apologize - that was a terrific post. I love those videos - (the third one is not working for me). The video's look almost like taped performances of dance demonstrations more than the real deal folk dancing. Do you think that is the case? I wonder what the folk dance community does in Ireland now? It would be interesting to hear.

Here in New England there is very little Irish Step dancing that I can see - you do get an occasional performance dance - but I don't know of any true social folk dancing of that type. Maybe it exists, but I have not seen it. There is however a very active folk dance community in New England. By far the biggest part of it is Contra Dancing (just do a youtube search for contra dance and you will see what I mean), In Greenfield Massachusetts for one example there are at least two dances a week and hundreds of dancers turn out regularly. But there is also a good deal of English and Scottish dancing and even Swedish couple dancing. But the music is all fairly heavily accompanied by rhythm and chord players.

It is an interesting topic. It would be wonderful if some dancing returned to the pubs where the irish sessions are now held - or if some true irish social folk dancing would return here in the US.

[DonQuixote]

Super cool to see... I lent Dennis mine to play in a session once. His sounds better. =) But I maintain mine's playability has improved dramatically ever since.

[M.Marmot]

[QUOTE=Rob Gerety;777158]

Anyway, sorry for the ramble, but you got me thinking :-)[/QUOTE

I love those videos - (the third one is not working for me). The video's look almost like taped performances of dance demonstrations more than the real deal folk dancing. Do you think that is the case? I wonder what the folk dance community does in Ireland now? It would be interesting to hear.

It is an interesting topic. It would be wonderful if some dancing returned to the pubs where the irish sessions are now held - or if some true irish social folk dancing would return here in the US.

Well, given their date and that they were filmed for RTE, I'd imagine that those videos were probably leaning more to the demonstration side of dancing. Those group dances do have an inherent formality about them though, so i dont know how much different they'd be without the cameras rolling.

Though i'll say this, i have been to weddings in Ireland and the set dances were not too much different, except there being a whole hooley of people lined up to dance 'The Siege of Ennis'... and there are always those lads who can stepdance with the music to the bar, and bring the stout back down without spilling a drop or missing a beat

I'll try to post the link to the third video again as it has two fine hornpipes a bunch of information on the history of set dancing and links to an Irish set dancing site for those of a curious nature

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSGqxSdsC4w

I had the chance to see some traditional folk dancing in Burgundy, France, recent enough and the dances were also very much in this vein except the dancers were wearing wooden sabot/clogs, now thats percussion!

Again, on the note of plectrum noise with traditional music, is it preferred that a player lessen the sound of the plectrum or are there those that allow it some play as an added percussive element, as I thought Mr. Cahill was doing at some points in the original video?

[Jock]

A fine spot of playing, thanks.

Wilfar Luke yourself all playing f holes to great effect, I've f holes on my mandolin (even my banjo has f holes round the flange).

[Bertram Henze]

Apparently the dancers were the ones who would dictate the rythym and pace of each set and the quality of a good musician would be their ability to keep up with the dancers demands. That is to say, the tempo and rhythym could vary in a set or a tune depending on the dancers requirements.
...
Is it possible that F-style mandolins are frowned upon because they do not look folky enough?
That is that they dont fit the idea of an 'authentic' traditional instrument quite a snugly as the A-style mandolins with their Lute style looks?

There are stepdancers on a regular basis at one of our sessions. When they start thundering away with hard shoes on a wooden floor, the musicians just have no choice but try to stay in sync. Bodhrans are inaudible, let alone pick noises...

From my experience, realtime Ireland is completely informal regarding the looks of instruments or musicians - neither you nor your instrument have to look authentic. It's the variety that is truly authentic. All that counts is what you hear.

[M.Marmot]

Bodhrans are inaudible, let alone pick noises...

From my experience, realtime Ireland is completely informal regarding the looks of instruments or musicians - neither you nor your instrument have to look authentic. It's the variety that is truly authentic. All that counts is what you hear.

Granted, when playing for dancers, or even playing in a session, the niggling nuance of whether the plectrum is rapping out the rhythm is a tad superfluous, as being heard on mandolin in those situations at all is often a tall order, but with regards the plectrum noise I was considering a situation more in lines with the original Hayes-Cahill video where volume is not a struggle.

The way i see it, the mandolin would be in an almost unique position amongst the chord instruments, due to its inherent string tension, i'm not sure that it would be as easy to pronounce the plectrum noise on guitar for instance without dampening strings. If the player is playing with a fairly hefty plectrum then pick noise will probably be a consideration, the questions i'm trying to address are

whether or not it is desirable?
can be used as an additional percussive device?
does anyone consciously use this as a technique?

In my experience the mandolin is a rare enough phenomenon in a Ireland, a land where tenor banjo and bouzouki dominate and provide easy roads out of the problems of the mandolin volume ghetto.

As for the F-style/A-style kerfuffle, personally i have never seen any mandolin frowned upon in trad circles in Ireland, a good instrument will be admired, to be sure, but just as often you will find cheap F-style mandolins are quite often touted about as they are far easier to find, and you are quite right, the interest is far more centred on what and how you play the music.

In fact i never realised that folks could get so het up about mandolin styles/plectrums/chops or nots until i started reading the mandocafe forum.

[DougC]

Thanks Dagger for a nice video. I am most impressed that Dennis did a harmony part on that last reel. THAT is not your usual accompaniment in Irish music. I think Dennis is doing a lot in expanding the role of mandolin in traditional Irish music. Dervish has been the mainstay for mandolin family instruments and others of course. But Dennis and Martin seem to really understand the tradition while adding to the idiom.

[Johnozouk]

Martin and Dennis played here in Albuquerque last night. It was a great concert. Dennis used the mandolin for one set of tunes only. It is a very nice sounding instrument. Wish he had played it more.

John