planting, brushing, free hand, bridge rest :

[300win]

I read quite a bit on here about how planting/brushing is a very bad thing to do. Yes I've read the pros and cons, and the freehanders/bridge rest folk have good input on that. Some say that you can not realize your full potential as a player until you have a freehand, or rest on the bridge. I've always lightly brushed my fingers on the top plate, or pickgaurd on a guitar, something that got ingrained in me over 40 years, so I don't believe I'll be changing. I know some will say to me, but you must, I ask why. Why, if anybody that can do a decent clean job of playing, and are comfortable with how they are doing, must change ? Just because an expert says so ? I've seen a lot of good and great pickers over the years, some that brush/plant, others that rest on the bridge. Only differance I can see is that the brush/planters will rub the finish off the mandolin top plate, and I've noticed that some of the bridge rest guys have trouble with string breakage at the bridge because of all the oil/sweat rubbing off thier hand on the bridge saddle, also have seen cases where bridge rest guys actually knocked the bridge out of line a bit ruining intonation. I'm not knocking anyone on how they do it. I've always thought as long as you are picking and 'DOING" the job, I could care less about how you hold your pick, your hand, rest, brush, plant, freehand, bridge rest, as long as you can pull that tone out and play clean, what differance does it make ? I have to laugh sometimes at some of our opinions we have here, everything is not written in stone. Just want to know why some here are so sure in what they think is right that everybody else with a differant view is wrong. We are all right or wrong in differant things and times, some more some less, but that varies too. I don't know maybe I'm missing what it is about, but I don't care if some pro comes to me and says whatever I'm doing is not correct, as long as I can play the same tunes they do, who's right ?, who's wrong ? I've had a couple of folks who showed or told me stuff that their teacher/instructor said about playing, that I knew was wrong, and that was actually hindering them, but I didn't say anything because I didn't want to cause them more problems and confusion, I figured if they stayed at it long enough and worked hard they would figure it out someday. Anyway, just would like to have some insight on this, maybe somebody will tell me something that makes sense to me and changes my mind. Thanks.

[Coy Wylie]

Everyone's hands are unique. So we can't exactly duplicate anyone else's right hand approach. However, the most important aspect is making your right hand do what your brain wants it to do. That's the challenge. Playing the right string at the right time while getting good tone and volume are what is important. Some do that by planting. Some do it by floating.

In the flatpicking world, compare Tim Stafford (flipper) with David Grier. Both are great guitarist with great tone and timing but very different ways of using applying the pick to the strings.

[AlanN]

Many years ago, Mike Stangeland documented the techniques used by the prominent mandolinists: how they hold the pick, do they plant fingers, do they use a p/g, do they have open/closed fists. I don't recall the exact numbers, but the bottom line was: many different methods. And they all got the job done.

[Earl Gamage]

It does seem like on most threads you can find exactly opposite advice and just about anything in between. I don't think it's a matter of convincing anyone there is only one right way. To me, the value of the advice is getting you to think of new ideas or techniques you want to try.

[300win]

Many years ago, Mike Stangeland documented the techniques used by the prominent mandolinists: how they hold the pick, do they plant fingers, do they use a p/g, do they have open/closed fists. I don't recall the exact numbers, but the bottom line was: many different methods. And they all got the job done.

Exactly ! In the saying of the youngsters of today, " long as you got game, bring it on " !

[300win]

It does seem like on most threads you can find exactly opposite advice and just about anything in between. I don't think it's a matter of convincing anyone there is only one right way. To me, the value of the advice is getting you to think of new ideas or techniques you want to try.

earlG that also is good advise, but I would think it would be better for folks that are just beginning who have not developed their own style yet, rather than for old dogs like myself. Example : I have tried to play with a freehand/bridge rest before, really concentrated, just as an experiment to see what everybody is talking about, in my case doing that provides a total failure in control not only in my pick hand, but also my fretting hand, which ends up in a royal mess. I'll just stick with the way I can do it, granted there is not any problem knowing if I have owned a previous mandolin, as I always leave my mark on them with my brushing fingers. On that note I tried a pick-gaurd over a year ago on my A-9, I left it on for approx. 30 minutes, knew it wasn't for me. I guess it all boils down to what works for each individual.

[Darren Bailey]

I was watching the Bill Monroe technique DVD from Homespun just last night. He was asked about this and said his finger does/did rest sometimes on the mandolin. Also he said his wrist rested on the bridge. Good enough for me.

[300win]

In referance to bridge resting, I have a friend who is a great musician on fiddle, banjo, guitar, and mandolin. Whenever he gets together with me to jam a little and wants to play my mandolin, I am wary about letting him, for the simple reason is he rest his wrist so heavily on the top of the saddle, that he can push it ever so slightly out of intonation. He has a Japan made F copy that is a fair mandolin, and is always bringing it to me to "work" on it because the intonation has slipped out of true, problem being his heavy wrist, and he always mutes one when he plays. I've told him the problem, but he's like me set in his way. Good thing mandolin ain't his main instrument he would be constantly frustrated if it were. The fiddle is what he was born to play. His right hand stays away from the bridge on that 'un , lol.

[Rob Gerety]

I think its difficult sometimes to admit to yourself that you have developed a habit that is affecting your playing in a negative way. Like your friend planting his hand too hard on the bridge. Certainly, I know it was hard for me to accept that I would benefit if I changed the way I hold the pick. But, I finally accepted it and made the change. It was hard. But it was worth it.

I honestly don't buy into the notion that there isn't any objectively superior technique. I believe there are some habits that people develop that can really hold them back down the road. Your right though that there are many examples of massively skilled players using techniques that some would say are not optimal. In the end its the music that counts. I want to be able to produce the best music I am capable of producing and I think the best way to get there is to consciously think about my technique and develop technique that will give me the best chance to play really well someday.

[300win]

I think its difficult sometimes to admit to yourself that you have developed a habit that is affecting your playing in a negative way. Like your friend planting his hand too hard on the bridge. Certainly, I know it was hard for me to accept that I would benefit if I changed the way I hold the pick. But, I finally accepted it and made the change. It was hard. But it was worth it.

I honestly don't buy into the notion that there isn't any objectively superior technique. I believe there are some habits that people develop that can really hold them back down the road. Your right though that there are many examples of massively skilled players using techniques that some would say are not optimal. In the end its the music that counts. I want to be able to produce the best music I am capable of producing and I think the best way to get there is to consciously think about my technique and develop technique that will give me the best chance to play really well someday.

Rob. what you say makes sense. I myself have been blessed over the years to have been able to help make music with a bunch of very talented high caliber musicians, some of which are some well known names in Bluegrass today. I learned from all of them. Although I can-not play really fast anymore, I can play some of the best music I have ever played, and that comes from knowing more about what I'm doing. Now I am ignorant on a lot of music stuff, terms of explaining things, don't know the official lingo, but I was fortunate enough to have a good ear for it, usually hearing something once is enough for me to get hold of it fairly well. I play with 3 differant groups now, and they do some stuff I'm not only not familar with but sometimes have never heard it at all until we are actually playing it, and to me that is what makes it fun, when it comes my time to take a ride, there usually is no problem. They look at me like I'm crazy sometimes because they will do stuff from some of these new bands that I have no idea who they are as I never listen to music, I'd rather play it than listen to it. So whenever they get into stuff that has been done in the past 10 years or so, I think they think they might lose me, but I always hold the torch high for the old guys. On the other hand I can pick some old obscure Monroe, Baker. Greene, tunes sometimes and they are at a toatal loss on what is going on, thats when I get my laughs. Bottom line is to always have a open mind to new ideas, new music, and strive to get better as long as you can play no matter if you've been picking 6 months or 50 years, there is always something to learn. I enjoy talking to the folks here a lot of knowledge shared.

[mandotopia]

I have found that letting my wrist float above the bridge with an arched wrist works best (for me). My forearm is anchored on the body where most aftermarket armrests are placed. The only part of me that touches the mando (on the right hand) is the forearm. This technique is very difficult at first but over the long haul it allows for a more fluid tremelo and it is easier to play doublestops smoothly. Most people seem to anchor heal of hand on bridge ar anchor pinkey on top or pickgard. These seem easier at first but I believe tremolo is compromised.

[Rob Gerety]

Bottom line is to always have a open mind to new ideas, new music, and strive to get better as long as you can play no matter if you've been picking 6 months or 50 years, there is always something to learn. I enjoy talking to the folks here a lot of knowledge shared.

+1.

[ralph johansson]

The original post is a bit strange. The use of slashes could give the impression that planting and brushing are instances or degrees of the same thing. They're opposites, although you might mix the¨two up a bit. On a pickguard you normally brush, but you might brace a little for passages with minimal pick motion, e.g., tremolo. The late Butch Baldassari would extend his pinky for tremolo; Evan Marshall posts his pinky in a strange sideways fashion, also on a guard. But he tremulates A LOT, in fact too much in my taste.

The same goes for free hand versus resting in the bridge. Actually, I don't know of a single educator or player who advocates the latter. Many of them allow the hand to touch the bridge or the strings behind it ever so slightly, but they do not apply any pressure, as that would stiffen the action of the wrist. Touching the bridge could be avoided completely with an armrest - or using a pickguard.

Oh, and strings break for mechanical reasons. I keep breaking one of the d or a strings (or the g string on the guitar);
I guess it has to do with material fatigue.

If the OP never breaks strings it's probably because he changes them more often, or has a lighter attack, or plays far away from the bridge most of the time.

[Mike Snyder]

Sam Bush plants when he's doing that machine-gun staccato thing he does so well, then he free hands to get that famous chop. I evidently brush, although I'm never aware of it. The finish is coming off at the top of the bottom f-hole, and I know that my pinkie is doing it, but I can't stop. Lots of gooder pickers have wear in that area. A bunch of folks on the cafe hold their opinions too strongly, and a lot are more serious about picking than I ever was. It's always best, for me, to lighten up and have fun. At times, I feel that some folks are missing out on some of the enjoyment of making music.

[AlanN]

All the great players we admire - Ronnie McCoury, Frank Wakefield, David Grisman, Doyle Lawson, Bill Monroe, Sam Bush, (insert name) - all have this in common: no tension. They make it look so easy and natural. Their right hand with pick is just an extension of their body. I take my hand (sans pick) and just play on the strings sometimes. Then I take my pick and try to get the same easy flow.

At the old M&M Hall in Old Bridge, NJ, I remember a fellow who had arthritis, bad. He so loved to play. He actually glued his pick to his fingers to get it. His hand looked like a floppy fish.

We all do it the way we do it.

[300win]

To Ralph, naw the 'slashes' I used as you called them are just siple commas that I remembered my English teacher telling me I should use every now and then when writing something to seperate the words lol. Oh I do know about breaking strings, I used to have a mandolin that I went through 3 sets per week playing a nightclub 6 nights per week for 9 months, but that was because the mandolin I had was a "DOG" in every way, only thing I could afford at the time though. But as far as breaking them now, I think it has a lot to do with real high quality instruments, with high quality bridges that are fir as close to perfection as can be done. My playing time = 3 hours per day average, my distance from the bridge is right at the 'sweet' spot where the extension would be, my mandolins do not have that to get in the way, my 'attack' is hard and strong as when i was growing up all the inferior mandolins I had you had to really get on 'em to hear, although the ones I have now are plenty loud without bearing down, I still play hard. I brush, only way I can play clean, except on chopping, freehand and loose, with a little up tick on the pick before you go down, like Sam does it, you get kind of a roll to your chop that puts a little extra pop in it. And as far as breaking strings, everyones chemistry is differant. One of the guys I grew up picking music with who now has his own Bluegrass band besides playing with the Seldom Scene, his body chemistry used to be so bad he would almost break strings just by looking at them. I have seen him play on a new set of strings on something and after 3-4 hours they would be dead as a doornail, at least the ones he had not broken. Don't know if he still that way or not. And I also know for a fact that sweating on the strings right where they cross the saddle will deteriate them really fast, thus leading to faster wear and breakage.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

Several posters have hinted at the fact that none of this is static. That is, good pickers are continuously adjusting their hand "posture" to do different things as they play. I think that's worth emphasizing.

[ralph johansson]

Many years ago, Mike Stangeland documented the techniques used by the prominent mandolinists: how they hold the pick, do they plant fingers, do they use a p/g, do they have open/closed fists. I don't recall the exact numbers, but the bottom line was: many different methods. And they all got the job done.

I just looked at the survey, and actually on a certain level of abstraction there are really only two approaches listed : touching down (curled fingers on guard, open hand without one) and lightly touching the strings behind the bridge. The word "touch" is used in almost all the examples. The word "post" is used once, in reference to Baldassari´s tremolo. The word "rest", as I recall, is never used at all. There are several ways of achieving good results and many ways of achieving bad results. There are also a few examples of prominent mandolinists who seem to get the job done in spite of a somewhat contorted technique. One example would be Adam Steffey (I only have trouble with his stuff, not his technique) another would be the boy in Cherryholmes (I forget his first name)

[ralph johansson]

To Ralph, naw the 'slashes' I used as you called them are just siple commas that I remembered my English teacher telling me I should use every now and then when writing something to seperate the words lol. Oh I do know about breaking strings, I used to have a mandolin that I went through 3 sets per week playing a nightclub 6 nights per week for 9 months, but that was because the mandolin I had was a "DOG" in every way, only thing I could afford at the time though. But as far as breaking them now, I think it has a lot to do with real high quality instruments, with high quality bridges that are fir as close to perfection as can be done. My playing time = 3 hours per day average, my distance from the bridge is right at the 'sweet' spot where the extension would be, my mandolins do not have that to get in the way, my 'attack' is hard and strong as when i was growing up all the inferior mandolins I had you had to really get on 'em to hear, although the ones I have now are plenty loud without bearing down, I still play hard. I brush, only way I can play clean, except on chopping, freehand and loose, with a little up tick on the pick before you go down, like Sam does it, you get kind of a roll to your chop that puts a little extra pop in it. And as far as breaking strings, everyones chemistry is differant. One of the guys I grew up picking music with who now has his own Bluegrass band besides playing with the Seldom Scene, his body chemistry used to be so bad he would almost break strings just by looking at them. I have seen him play on a new set of strings on something and after 3-4 hours they would be dead as a doornail, at least the ones he had not broken. Don't know if he still that way or not. And I also know for a fact that sweating on the strings right where they cross the saddle will deteriate them really fast, thus leading to faster wear and breakage.

Well, my point was simply that strings break eventually, especially the thinner wound strings. I keep mine on until one of them breaks, usually in 3-6 months, and I brush on a guard so theres is virtually no contact between my hand and the bridge. I should really change more often.

Another point was a certain amount of disbelief because I've never heard of anyone resting his picking hand on the bridge. It's certainly not recommended as you seem to believe. The Marshall video for d'Addario is fairly representative of one of the two main approaches.

[ralph johansson]

Sam Bush plants when he's doing that machine-gun staccato thing he does so well, then he free hands to get that famous chop. I evidently brush, although I'm never aware of it. The finish is coming off at the top of the bottom f-hole, and I know that my pinkie is doing it, but I can't stop. Lots of gooder pickers have wear in that area. A bunch of folks on the cafe hold their opinions too strongly, and a lot are more serious about picking than I ever was. It's always best, for me, to lighten up and have fun. At times, I feel that some folks are missing out on some of the enjoyment of making music.

I´ve seen close-ups of Bush's right hand and I would say that he touches the top very lightly with his right hand, with his pinky sliding along whenever appropriate. I wouldn't call that planting (to plant= to set firmly, to fix in place). Some of these discussions suffer quite a bit from unclear or misunderstood concepts.

Paying attention to good technique entails better tone, better volume, better time, less tension and less fatigue. Hence more fun.

[Rob Gerety]

Good posts Ralph. I agree that there is often inexact language used to describe this right hand technique stuff. Also, I totally agree that paying attention to good technique is important and helpful.

[AlanN]

I have seen an old NGR youtube where they do Reach. During Sam's solo, where he goes into that lickety-split triplet flurry, he moves his hand up toward the fingerboard, plants the pinky and goes to town. When he goes back to single notes, he moves his hand back down.

What a great solo, has eluded me lo these many years.

[300win]

Years ago I went to many Bluegrass festivals. I saw the Newgrass Revival many times, including the first time they played at a festival in Berryville, Virgina. The version of the band I was fortunate to have seen aws the original band, Sam Bush, Courtney Johnson, Curtis Burch, and Ebo Walker, in my mind they were and are still the best of that group. Back then Sam played many mandolins, several times he played A-5 style mandolins of either original Gibson A's with long scale necks in them, or A's built by other luthiers, at one time for awhile he always came on stage with two A models of which is wife sat in a chair off to the side with one of them, her job was to change out broken strings as the show went on, for during that time Sam did break some strings a lot. Back then he also played F-5 style mandos but I seen him more times with the A's. One thing I do remeber on every mandolin he had the finish was worn off on the bottom from him brushing/planting either or both. Back then I never saw him play with a freehand except on chops, and I believe he still picks that way. I'd just like to say this, if brushing/planting is the 'wrong' way, then I sure would love to be able to do it 'as wrong' as Sam Bush does it. No other mandolin player I have ever seen or heard has impressed me as much as he has. His playing is flawless and way out beyond what most of us can comprehend. Sure there are some of us who can do quite a bit of what he does, but it ain't many and that includes myself, but there in none of us who can do all he does. So I rest my argument about brushing/planting/resting on the bridge, either on top or behind it/freehand, whatever there is no one "RIGHT" way as it is no one "WRONG" way to do it. Whichever way an individual finds that they can pick the best is that persons "right" way, regardless of what else anybody tells them. An example to ponder, ok lets say there are 5 mandolin players in a room, they are all equal in playing ability, each one has a differant style of how he holds his pick hand while taking a break, the tune is lets say 'ROANOKE", each of the 5 takes a break and just flat out 'NAILS IT", which one is right, which one is wrong ?

[Fretbear]

It is interesting to note that Sam Bush (I agree with what you say about his playing) has stated that he always played free-hand for all the time he was learning, but that the first week the NGR was formed his hand was accidentally closed in a car door, after which he was forced to play the way he is now famous for.

[300win]

It is interesting to note that Sam Bush (I agree with what you say about his playing) has stated that he always played free-hand for all the time he was learning, but that the first week the NGR was formed his hand was accidentally closed in a car door, after which he was forced to play the way he is now famous for.

Lucky for Sam huh ?