Opinions On Tab

[EdSherry]

Some of the objections previously raised to tab (notably, that it shows you how to play a tune in one key, but does not show you how to play it in other keys) are equally applicable to standard notation (SN). The skills associated with transposing a tune (whether in SN or in tab) to another key are different from the skills associated with reading what is written on the page (whether SN or tab).

Personally, I find SN preferable to tab for mandolin, but I started out (over 40 years ago) playing fingerpicking folk guitar, for which (IMHO) tab has LOTS of advantages over SN. Ditto for five-string banjo. (The idea of writing out or trying to decipher SN for a Scruggs-style or clawhammer-style banjo piece fills me with fear and trepidation. "It just ain't natural ...") Same for McReynolds-style crosspicking on a mando. Tab is far preferable, IMHO.

I acknowledge that YMMV. But I see no reason not to take advantage of ALL of the available tools for learning (ear, tab, SN, videos/watching someone else, etc.) as appropriate.

[fishtownmike]

I disagree. You conveniently left out the leading portion of his comment, which puts this phrase in proper context.
I think he hit the nail on the head.

Ronnie

Thanks Ron!

[Steve L]

This comment is uncalled for.

No, it's not.

[Rob Gerety]

Well, maybe I misunderstood the post - and if I did I apologize. I understood it to be a personal slight against one of the other members that had expressed opinions in this thread. If it was not intended in that way then please accept my apology.

[Jim Bevan]

I’ve seen it mentioned that tab shows fretboard position more clearly than notation – all the notation needs is fingering to indicate where on the fretboard to play the notes.

Side-stepping the "which is better" issue – what I notice in this discussion, in both notation and tab enthusiasts, is the omission of the mention of what I consider to be a crucial artistic step in the reading process (and my apologies to those to whom this doesn't apply). So, I thought I’d mention it: I believe that you should put your mind's ear in between your eyes and your fingers. Don't just play what you see; hear what you see in your head, and then play by ear. In other words [1] see it; [2] hear (imagine) it; [3] play it. I would respect the musician who can sight-sing tab above one who can read notation but not sight-sing it. (Apologies for the digression, if it’s considered irrelevant.)

[Tom Haywood]

The piano trained my hands to find each "note" in only one place and trained my ear to hear each note as a particular set of frequencies. It took me forever to hear the same note on different size strings and at different length vibrations on the guitar. Of course, this is different "voicings" of a note which standard notation doesn't reveal. To my ear it always sounded like different notes, and that made it difficult to find the best hand position. I like to have the notation and the tab printed out together for the guitar. For some reason it is easier to try different hand positions and voicings on the mandolin, so I prefer notation.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

I want to echo Jim Bevan's post. "Sight reading" is redundant. The end goal in using written notation of any kind is to "sight sing" as Jim describes. *Hear* the tune right off the paper.

I play by ear (that is, without notation) 99.9% of the time. I learn most of my tunes by ear and play by heart a couple thousand pieces (mainly Irish tunes, but also bluegrass, old time, folk, rock, and some blues). Maybe I'm wired weird, but the same sight singing works for me whether using standard notation, tab (for mandolin, bass, guitar, or banjo), or abc notation. Each format has it's own patterns that reveal not just the melody but the tune's contour, rhythmic organization, harmonic structure, etc. Then again, I've been reading standard notation since I was 7 (43 years ago), and I use all of the above notation systems daily in my teaching job, so I wallow in this stuff. The main benefit to me is that I can teach using whatever method works best for each student. (FWIW, I teach by ear and provide recordings and notation as memory aids and tools to enhance understanding of the music.)

Sure, it takes some time to become fluent in any communication system. And the ears are essential in playing music--it *is* an aural art form. But these various tools can complement one another as you learn to play. Babies learn to speak their parent's language by immersion and listening. We don't teach them to read until they can already talk quite fluently. I think the same sequence is smart when learning music, but the time frame can be condensed a bit because (1) anyone wanting to learn to play has no doubt already been exposed to if not immersed in music, and (2) the elements of music are less complex than verbal language (compare western music to the English language: 12 tones as opposed to 26 letters, 40-plus phonemes, etc., and things like timing, rhythm, contour, and pitch can apply to comprehending and expressing verbally as well as musically, so you get the idea....).

My biggest job in teaching people to make music is getting them to listen, really listen, a lot. If written notation helps them understand what they're hearing, then it's useful. But the ears are primary.

[JeffD]

I want to echo Jim Bevan's post. "Sight reading" is redundant. The end goal in using written notation of any kind is to "sight sing" as Jim describes. *Hear* the tune right off the paper.

I play by ear (that is, without notation) 99.9% of the time. I learn most of my tunes by ear and play by heart a couple thousand pieces (mainly Irish tunes, but also bluegrass, old time, folk, rock, and some blues).

I think you nailed it. Being able to hear the tune right off the paper is a huge advantage. I play and learn new tunes by ear, but not nearly as much as I play and learn off the page. I would bet that I have music in front of me at least 75% of time I am behind the instrument, the exceptions being when I am jamming or playing a music party. I "listen" to tunes right off the page from tune books, to decide if they are interesting to me, and I write out new tunes I have learned by ear into one of my notebooks.

Hearing the dots on the page is a huge skill.

[Bertram Henze]

I disagree. You conveniently left out the leading portion of his comment, which puts this phrase in proper context.
I think he hit the nail on the head.

Well, maybe I misunderstood the post - and if I did I apologize. I understood it to be a personal slight against one of the other members that had expressed opinions in this thread. If it was not intended in that way then please accept my apology.

Putting out a shoe for whoever it might fit can be as easily misunderstood as putting on a shoe in case it might fit.

Now feel free to ignore this here shoe, please

[ralph johansson]

Some of the objections previously raised to tab (notably, that it shows you how to play a tune in one key, but does not show you how to play it in other keys) are equally applicable to standard notation (SN). The skills associated with transposing a tune (whether in SN or in tab) to another key are different from the skills associated with reading what is written on the page (whether SN or tab).

Personally, I find SN preferable to tab for mandolin, but I started out (over 40 years ago) playing fingerpicking folk guitar, for which (IMHO) tab has LOTS of advantages over SN. Ditto for five-string banjo. (The idea of writing out or trying to decipher SN for a Scruggs-style or clawhammer-style banjo piece fills me with fear and trepidation. "It just ain't natural ...") Same for McReynolds-style crosspicking on a mando. Tab is far preferable, IMHO.

I acknowledge that YMMV. But I see no reason not to take advantage of ALL of the available tools for learning (ear, tab, SN, videos/watching someone else, etc.) as appropriate.

The point is rather that tab represents one single fingering of a special version of a tune. I believe I've said this before: the true dichotomy is not tab-SN but ad hoc-general. SN is, or should be, learned in the context of theory. If the key is Eb,
a note on the fourth space is not an e to be flattened but the root of the scale, etc. Anyone who learns to read properly will have no trouble transposing a tune to the desired key.

[Rob Gerety]

Perhaps the reality is that at certain times in the learning process its best to put the paper away and work on your ears in a more focused way so that you develop the ability to play intuitively. At other times it might be good to use the paper. Reading these posts has me thinking that some of you that are much further along than I am and you use the paper in a more sophisticated way and it does not have the affect on you that it does on me which is to discourage me from learning to play intuitively. I think this is what the original OP may have meant when he suggested that playing and learning with paper has the effect of stifling his creativity. Maybe my view on this issue is influenced heavily by the place I am at musically right now.

[chasgrav]

The only thing sadder than not being able to read written music is not being able to play without it.

It's all good. Learn the music any way you can, but then put the paper away!

[woodwizard]

To me it's pretty easy to convert tab from one key to another key and re-write it out. Tools tools tools and like someone mentioned ... once you learn it through away the paper

[JonZ]

I disagree. You conveniently left out the leading portion of his comment, which puts this phrase in proper context.
I think he hit the nail on the head.

Ronnie

Okay, here is the whole quote in context:

I'm OK with tab. i see no problem with someone learning this way. I have over the years used my ear, tab and standard notation to learn songs. Why not use all the tools available if it helps to make you a better player. I kinda think its snobbish to think whatever way you do it is the best way and only way it should be done.

I don't understand why it is snobish to make generalizations about the best way to learn the mandolin. Many people come to these forums because they are trying to to organize a major endeavor: mastering the mandolin. "Use all tools available" is no better advice for learning to play a mandolin than learning to build one. Newbies are trying to figure out the best tools for the job, and it is gracious of other players to share their considered opinions.

[Jim Broyles]

Here's the way I look at this. Whichever way you learn to play, don't just learn where to put your fingers to play a tune. If you read standard notation, you have to know the fretboard notes, whereas if you strictly read tablature, you are only seeing where to put your fingers. Either of these are fine, but if, at some point, you don't learn what notes and in which key you are playing, you really will not progress as a player. I recommend learning the basics, and let me stress the basics of theory and the fretboard notes along with learning songs via tablature, (if that's the easiest way for you,) but please don't stop at just the tab. You are doing yourself a disservice if you don't learn intervals, chords and why they go together. It doesn't require a degree in theory, just get to know the major scale, the modes and scale harmony, including the scalar triads. If that's as far as you ever go, you will still be able to hold your own in most informal playing situations. Anybody who tells you either that tab is bad, OR you don't need to learn standard notation, doesn't really have your best interest at heart, and is probably basing their opinion on their own experience, for better or for worse. Try everything and make up your own mind.

[Jim Broyles]

The only thing sadder than not being able to read written music is not being able to play without it.

It's all good. Learn the music any way you can, but then put the paper away!

I think I hear what you are saying, but when you say "It's all good" and then tell them they have to "put the paper away" the question which comes to mind is, why? If someone is aided by having music in front of them to play, what possible harm can it do?

[Patrick Bouldin]

Generally, notation is woth the extra time it takes to become proficient. Notation allows you to play any sheet music rather than trying to find a mando tab version. Tab might be easier at first but if you plan to become a serious player, notation will take you further. A friend of mine who plays baroque lute makes a good case for lute tab. On a lute there are many different ways to voice any combination of notes and tab does tell you which string and fret you should use. Notation does not give this info usually. On a mandolin, there are not too many ways to vioce anything so this advantage does not exist for mando tab. Unless you have a real good reason to chose tab, you should learn notation IMHO.

oohh. definitely not on the same page, this must be an individual decision. I've tried learning notation and it just about drives me out of my mind. Tab is easy for me. So far I haven't found anything that isn't available in tab - in fact I'd say it's the other way around - of course I play mostly bluegrass so I have no idea about classical, jazz, etc. Also, learning by ear is important but learing new songs by tab will teach you more spazaz than just learning the melody - I've done both and prefer tab. I bet it was notation that drove me away from piano as a kid - in fact I know so.

Oh yeah, I guess I would also disagree about the usefulness of tab in terms of fingerboard position - there are so many licks that are better in different positions that if you're trying to learn somebody's style I don't see how else you could do it, notation would not cut it - I guess if you had a video to go along with it.

Patrick

[Rob Gerety]

If someone is aided by having music in front of them to play, what possible harm can it do?

In my case having the paper out in front of me tends to reduce my focus on what the others around me are doing and also tends to stifle any thoughts of improvisation I might have.

[JeffD]

In my case having the paper out in front of me tends to reduce my focus on what the others around me are doing and also tends to stifle any thoughts of improvisation I might have.

I know what you mean.

But it depends on the music. There is so much music where improvisation is not a part of it. There is so much to enjoy about playing music that doesn't involve improvisation.

The way I look at it, improvization is like off road driving. Its a great thing that a lot of people enjoy, but there is a lot of joy and transcendance and fun in going down the road itself, and a whole lot of folks who don't even think going off road. For them the map need not be limiting, but is often enabling,(and in some cases need not be put away).

And, to continue my anology - for those who do enjoy off roading, a map can be useful in telling you where you are relative to the road, and where you might be if you popped back onto the road over there.

Rob I don't disagree with you, just putting a little light out for drivers who aren't off roaders.

[JeffD]

So far I haven't found anything that isn't available in tab - in fact I'd say it's the other way around - of course I play mostly bluegrass so I have no idea about classical, jazz, etc.

I play some bluegrass, but mostly not. I like old time, southern and northern, contra-dance repertory, New England and French Canadian fiddle tunes, as well as some classical, medival/rennaissance, some tango, some ragtime, and attempts at Western Swing. The vast majority of the music I read is written for instruments other than mandolin, mostly fiddle, in some cases piano. Not a lot of tab for it.

There is a lot more mandolin tab than there used to be, The Mandolin Playes Fakebook being one of the first I remember, and a lot more being published for mandolin in notation and tab, the excellent books by Allan Alexander for example. But even with that there is not a lot out there in tab.

But it always is, by definition, someone finding music that would be good on mandolin, and tabbing it. So its spoon fed stuff. I love diving into all the crazy music out there and finding for myself what might be mandolinny.


I do agree that it is an individual decision, and if the goal is to get a lot out of playing, (and it is), you and I have no arguement.

[Rob Gerety]

The way I look at it, improvization is like off road driving. Its a great thing that a lot of people enjoy, but there is a lot of joy and transcendance and fun in going down the road itself, and a whole lot of folks who don't even think going off road. For them the map need not be limiting, but is often enabling,(and in some cases need not be put away).

And, to continue my anology - for those who do enjoy off roading, a map can be useful in telling you where you are relative to the road, and where you might be if you popped back onto the road over there.

Rob I don't disagree with you, just putting a little light out for drivers who aren't off roaders.

I understand. So that I am clear about where I'm at - I am not off roading yet - but I'm getting myself a 4 wheeler and a winch and I'm on my way to the dirt roads.

I should also say that even without the off road factor I have a really good instructor that puts us together in his home and teaches us to play contra dance music. When the last series of lessons started he announced that no paper of any kind would be allowed in the class for this series. Paper at home ok, but not in class. He is a great guy and he feels very strongly that it is important in this genre anyway we learn to play by feel, without reading. My limited experience with this is that it has helped me dramatically as far as playing with emotion, listening to others around me and making arrangements really work.

Its funny but I find that I can remember and play straight melodies that I have learned by ear without any difficulty - I feel no need for paper. But for some reason I cannot say the same about chords. I have one heck of a time remembering the various chord progressions that we work out for these contra dance tunes. I think in this genre playing the chords is really where a lot of the improvisational opportunities exist. The chords we play often change from simple to complex and back again in the course of a dance - and the rhythmic characteristic of our playing changes as well. Not to mention we will change the chords to some extent every time we sit down together. This makes it very hard for me to remember. But - the struggle is reaping benefits. I can attest to the fact that my ear is dramatically better than it was six months ago. So, for my purpose, at my level, playing in the genre I am playing in - I'm sticking to the no paper rule as much as I possibly can. I totally understand and agree that other people, at different levels, playing different music might do best with paper.

[groveland]

Notation is the requirements specification.
Tab is a single implementation of the spec.

I think there is no doubt that the ear rules.

[Mandophyte]

Groveland,
Brilliant succinct comment!

[JonZ]

Notation is the requirements specification.
Tab is a single implementation of the spec.

I think there is no doubt that the ear rules.

I assume you are trying to say that improvisation is superior to reproducing someone else's musical ideas. However, there is a place for both notation and tab in learning to improvise. You haven't demonstrated that playing exclusively by ear is the most effective way to learn to improvise. I believe that most of the jazz greats are quite fluent at sight reading. I spend the majority of my time practicing with standard notation, yet my ability to play by ear is also improving, along with my ability to sight read. So I am gaining two benefits. When you play from a score, you are also hearing what you are playing, so you are learning in multiple modes: hearing, seeing, feeling the fingering and picking patterns, etc. This all helps with improvisation.

So, I don't think it is correct to say playing by ear is superior. It has a place in a balanced approach to practicing.

[JeffD]

So, I don't think it is correct to say playing by ear is superior. It has a place in a balanced approach to practicing.

Groveland may clarify, but my take is that the ears rule in that we are talking about music, so how it looks is not as important to how it sounds.

I agree with your point about multiple modes, sight sound feeling fingering, the more ways in the better.