Amateur repair job for a 1920 Gibson A-2

[mandotrev]

I have an A-2 that has an issue. The back has separated about 1/4 of an inch right where it meets the neck. I think it separated from a dryness issue. I moved to a new apartment recently that has convection heating and I wasn't thinking about my mando. It had been slowly separating before and one day I looked and the heel of the back plate was significantly separated.

I live in South Korea (teach English at a university here) and finding a qualified luthier with vintage mandolin experience here is out of the question. What I am wondering is if I should attempt the repair myself. It's not too warped. Steaming? Soaking? Wood glue? I think I can do it myself if someone is willing to walk me through it. Here is a picture taken with the camera on my monitor. I can post better pictures if necessary, but this should give you an idea of the issue.

Thanks very much. Advice much appreciated.

[Greg Mirken]

The first thing to do, right now, is take the strings off. Otherwise string tension will distort the sides so they won't align with the back. Then, better pictures would be good.

It would be great if someone can refer you to an experienced repairer in Korea.

[MikeEdgerton]

Contact Cafe member Desert Rose (his name is Scott). His profile is here. He is in Japan but does work with musical instrument manufacturers in Korea as far as I know and he might be able to point you to someone closer to you that would be qualified to do the work.

[Paul Hostetter]

What Greg Mirken said. Perhaps you should investigate some way to get it back stateside to get it set right.

[mandotrev]

Thanks for the suggestions. I have contacted Desert Rose and am awaiting a reply. I loosened the strings as soon as I noticed the gap and it is in its case now with a humidifier in its sound hole.

No one thinks I can do it myself? The trouble with shipping it abroad for repairs is that the mandolin is not a museum piece. Although it plays and sounds wonderful, it was not expensive. I paid $825 for it about 10 years ago. If it is going to cost $400-500 to fix, I would be tempted to just buy another on ebay. The recession has been driving prices down considerably, so it might be a good time to do that, anyway... I am brave enough to attempt the repair myself if anyone could explain the process of soaking the wood or steaming it. I promise to follow directions to the letter.

Much obliged.

[Paul Hostetter]

You don't soak it. You don't steam it. You're really putting it at great risk putting a humidifier in the soundhole.

[mandotrev]

By humidifier I mean a slightly damp sponge with a plastic covering, designed to evaporate slowly. I am certain I am not harming the instrument. If it is not soaked or steamed, how can the wood be reshaped to fit back under the neck?

[Paul Hostetter]

Having been in the instrument repair business for over 40 years, I've seen plenty of instrument damage from spot humidifiers, the ones that go in soundholes, cases, all of them, thanks to people who were certain they were not harming the instrument. Asking "how can the wood be reshaped to fit back under the neck?" is quite simply not a valid question. Your combination of attitude and inexperience is alarming. Do-it-yourself repair prescriptions over the internet in the absence of an actual examination of the instrument would be egregious. You might think it's just a cheap old thing not worth investing in properly—I can't accept that. I see too often the results of misguided amateur repairs that can't be reversed or corrected. It's your instrument. If you insist on wrecking it, it's your choice. But you do have other choices.

[Greg Mirken]

Paul may sound harsh, but he's reacting to the thought of another old instrument being hopelessly screwed up. They aren't making any more 1920 A-2s, and yours has survived for 90 years; it deserves respect. Those of us who have been repairing and restoring old instruments for a long time feel more responsibility to the instrument than to the owner sometimes. This instrument was around before you were, and it will be making music, hopefully, after you and I are gone.
It's hard to tell what's going on from your photo, but it's weird for the back to be pulling away from the neckblock like that. The back doesn't tuck under the neck or anything. It should just close up neatly when pressed down. If moderate pressure doesn't close things up perfectly, you will never be able to fix it yourself. Please give up the notion of steaming or soaking anything; that's just wrong.
Without better pictures it's getting pointless to offer any more advice.

[swain]

Where in S. Korea? Seoul I hope. I might be able to help you find two excellent violin shops. I'm not there now, but might be able to help with directions, presuming you've not visited these places already. PM me.

swain
Vega F, on the bench
pacrim a
Weber YS
Peterson Octave

[mandotrev]

Swain, I PM'ed you, but the message doesn't show up in my sent items. I configured my settings to keep a copy of sent messages...Did you receive it? I'd very much appreciate it if you could let me know of a good luthier in Seoul who is somewhat conversant in English.

Greg, I will try to put up better photos later today, thanks.

Paul, in reviewing the thread, I think I have asked some reasonable questions that make sense given my geographical circumstances and the economics of the instrument's value -- versus repair costs. While your 40 years of experience is laudable, I hope you can use it to help me figure out the best thing to do. My goal here is to explore all my options. I see no sense in taking an admonitory tone here. If a luthier is my only option, I think it makes sense for me to fully understand the work involved before I make that decision.

A slightly damp spot humidifier can damage my mandolin? I haven't heard this before. I have a room humidifier that I can use but don't have a hydrometer.

[mandotrev]

Here are a few more pictures. Thanks for looking. I should add that the neck action is fine. I can still tune and play the instrument as-is. It sounds fine. (I've loosened the strings, though, and won't play it until it's fixed).

Also, I should mention that it probably had a previous repair in the same place. When I bought the instrument, about ten years ago, it looked like there had been some sort of reglue activity in that spot.

[man dough nollij]

Having been in the instrument repair business for over 40 years, I've seen plenty of instrument damage from spot humidifiers, the ones that go in soundholes, cases, all of them, thanks to people who were certain they were not harming the instrument.

Hi Paul,

I've been in environments where in-case humidifiers were an only option. I have settled on an Oasis humidifier under the heel if it's around 20% RH, and an additional one under the head if it's lower. It has worked fantastic, with RH as low as 1% RH in the dorms at McMurdo station. Now that I'm back in the real world, and probably will be for some time, I'm wondering what the risks are of the in-case humidifiers. It's pretty dry here in CO, and I'll keep on using my case humidifiers, but I would hate to induce over-humidity in the location of the humidifiers.

[Ron McMillan]

During my searches for luthiers in Thailand I came across a reference to a luthier in Korea. His name is Kim Hee Hong, and his website is http://www.almaguitar.com/. I have no idea how good he is, but his website certainly generates a lot of traffic.

The website is a little opaque, but this information should help you get hold of Mr Kim:

alma@almaguitar.com
is not available now

Please contact here -> almains62@hotmail.com
Fax ++82 43 833 2928

[big smiley guy]

Hopefully any regluing involved hide glue - that will make the repair a lot easier. It always sucks figuring out the mystery glue that an amateur repairman has used.

[mandotrev]

Thanks, Blueron and Smiley. I emailed Mr. Kim along with the pictures I posted here. It is Sunday afternoon here, so I may have to wait a bit for a reply. I will post here what his response is.

What difference will hide glue VS. Elmer's wood glue make to its future prognosis?

[Rob Grant]

Interesting photos Trev, I've never had anything to do with a 1920 Gibson, but it's interesting to see that there is no heel button extending from the back plate. I thought only the Koreans made mandolins like that.<g>

Anyhow, if all else fails and you are facing selling your first born to afford the shipping cost alone of getting this little beast fixed, I think a bit of judicious DIY might suit the situation. Don't use a glue like epoxy or superglue. Carefully squeeze a bit of something like Titebond, Elmer's or even hide glue into the split (maybe work a tad over the headblock surface with a thin blade... just don't get too heavy handed). Then gently clamp the sucker with a G clamp using some thick leather to protect the clamped surfaces. Clean the excess glue which squeezes out while you still can. Then let the thing sit for 24 hours or so. If you use a glue that can later be reversed with heat, I can't see that any repair you do will be equivalent to defacing the Mona Lisa.<G>

[mandotrev]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the suggestion and kudos for being the first one here to think it possible to DIY. The wood is quite stiff. I tried gently pressing down on it to test whether a clamp and glue would do it, but I think I may damage the instrument if I try to force it. That is why I asked earlier about steaming or soaking.

You're in OZ? I am moving to NZ in July. Another thought I've had is waiting until I get down under to have it repaired. I wonder what sort of cost I would rack up and if it would cost more or less.

[Rob Gerety]

I am curious to hear from a luthier what would be the approximate expected cost of repair (range) and if it is possible/likely that the repair would involve a bit of hide glue and skillful clamping? Is that would is probably involved or is it more than that? I know you can't tell for sure without holding it in your hands, but what is your best educated guess?

Is it only the back that has separated? Are the sides still tightly affixed to the neck block?

The other thing you could do is sell it here on the cafe. I bet you could find a buyer with full disclosure. While these teens Gibson's are definitely worth repairing and keeping in good order there are still a lot of them around and on the market here in the US and you could replace it fairly easily at a later date.

I have to say, if it were me, I would not try to repair that myself. I'd want it repaired by someone who has done many similar repairs in the past. Its too nice of a mandolin. But, that's just me. I would be tempted - but I wouldn't do it.

[Rob Grant]

Trev, does it look like the back has separated from the head block and the head block has rotated slightly upward. In other words, has the action changed at all with this separation?

[jim_n_virginia]

I'd take the strings off, put it in a case and then buy another mandolin and play that one and wait until I could get to a qualified Luthier who has a LOT of experience working on mandolins particularly Gibsons to work on the other one.

You usually only get one shot at a clean repair before you gotta pay a luthier to repair the DIY AND still repair the original damage.

Now I'm no luthier but even I know that if there is a separation you have to clean the old glue before you clamp/glue it back so it will go back tight. There could be loose braces near there or neck block slippage.

Get you an nice cheap Eastman oval hole and fix that baby later when back in the states or something. Thats what I would do anyways! LOL! GOOD LUCK!!

[mandotrev]

Rob, I am certain that the action has not changed.

Jim, I have a couple other mandolins, so waiting to repair it is a possibility, though I will not be going back to the States any time soon.

I wonder how I can remove the glue? Sanding it?

[Rob Gerety]

My understanding is that the things you are talking about as far as glue removal etc. are exactly the sort of things that need to be left to an experienced professional. I'm told (and I obviously defer to someone who actually does these repairs) is that you use hot hide glue for this repair and assuming there is nothing but hide glue in there now the old glue it may melt during the repair and it may not be best to try to sand on it or scrape etc. I would not jump to the conclusion that you need to scrape out the old glue. I know that would be my instinct as well. But you are dealing with hide glue and its a different animal from modern glue. I really think you will be much better served by getting professional help and making sure that it is done right the first time so you are not left with a mess. Believe me, I understand the urge to do it yourself - but this is a time to resist the urge!!!

I have a small (3/4 inch) back separation in the same general vicinity on my Gibson A. The fellow I use for repairs in my area wants to charge me $50 to reglue it with hot hide glue. I've been putting it off. But after seeing your pictures - I think I'll get it done NOW!

See this re hide glue - http://www.spurlocktools.com/id57.htm.

[Randy Smith]

[QUOTE=Rob Gerety;786952]
The other thing you could do is sell it here on the cafe. I bet you could find a buyer with full disclosure. While these teens Gibson's are definitely worth repairing and keeping in good order there are still a lot of them around and on the market here in the US and you could replace it fairly easily at a later date.

I have to say, if it were me, I would not try to repair that myself. I'd want it repaired by someone who has done many similar repairs in the past. Its too nice of a mandolin. [QUOTE]

mandotrev:

You're getting really good advice from Rob and jim n' VA.

You mentioned you paid $800.+ for the A2. If you spend $400. for repair, you'll have $1200. invested, which you will be able to get back if you choose to sell it. Given the prices of many oval Gibsons are up from ten years ago, not down, I doubt you'll be losing any money. As Rob said, by disclose the repair a Cafe ad if you really want to sell it. It'll probably sell for at least what you have invested in it if not more.

Even better, if you have the mando repaired well, you will probably have a great playing mandolin that you want to keep. It's not going to lose its sound because it was repaired. I have an A2 that's had some sinkage reshaped and its brace slightly adjusted. It still sounds as great as it did before that work was done.

Disclosure: I love these old mandolins--I've got two. Get the work done on it by a professional and play another in the meantime.
But as they say, that's my opinion. . . .

[mandotrev]

Rob Gerety,

Can you give me the email of the email of the guy who gave you the $50 estimate? Maybe I can ship it.

Thanks.