Thinking about chucking the pickups and getting an instrument mic

[Rob Gerety]

For a while now I've been considering chucking my pickups (guitar and mandolin) and all the related stuff - pre amps and eq etc. - and getting a decent instrument mic. I don't need anything real expensive or fancy i don't think. Use will be mostly for live performance - contra dance band type stuff. I don't play out all that much so it just seems like such a hassle struggling with everything you need to make two instruments sound natural using pick ups.

My question - before I jump - is this: if you have an Audio Technica Pro 37 mic - how close to the mic do need to be in a live band situation to get good results? Also, should I expect to get bleed from nearby instruments - like fiddles and accordions?

Should I consider a different mic? Again - I'm typically plugging into a good PA system at a dance venue.

[jim_n_virginia]

Why are you going to use a small diaphragm condenser mic are you just going to play and not sing?

If you use a small diaphragm cond mic it is more focused and you have to be closer and right in front of the mic. If you used a large diaphragm when set up right it will pick up anything around it in about a 2-3 foot radius. You might pick up instruments next to you if you have the mic too hot that's where good EQ comes in.

Lately we have been using a large diaphragm cond. mic for vocals and Shure SM-57's for instrument mics. Seems to work the best for the two Bose systems we have been using. If we are in a super noisy environment like a bar (like where we played tonight) we won't even use the cond. mic and we switch to Shure SM-58 and SM-57 dynamic mics to get the power to get over the noise of the crowd.

I have learned a LOT since I have been running the sound in the last two bands I have been in. I STILL have a lot to learn! LOL! But I have come to the conclusion that there is no one set way. Each venue is different so I need different tools for different jobs. Sometimes condensers sometimes dynamic mics sometimes we use both.

[Rob Gerety]

Why are you going to use a small diaphragm condenser mic are you just going to play and not sing?

Yes. No singing (or certainly extremely rare) in contra dance stuff.

[Trey Young]

Hey Rob,
I have the AT pro 37 that I use at select venues, primarily smaller sit down venues. I have never used it in a noisey situation, so I wouldn't be able to comment on it's susceptability to feedback in noisey situations. But the times I have used it I have been very happy with it and have received plenty of compliments on it. I have never used it for guitar live, but when we recorded our demo, both guitar and mando used the pro 37 and an AKG 414 LDC. I personally preferred the sound of the pro 37 when it was isolated. I have never had any problem from other instruments bleeding into the mic, and I am usually right next to the guitar or banjo. I usually can stand a good bit back from the mic during rythm/chopping and then can move up on the mic for solos. Hope this helps, let me know if you have any other questions and I'll try to give you a long winded answer to those too.
Trey

[Tim2723]

I don't play out all that much so it just seems like such a hassle struggling with everything you need to make two instruments sound natural using pick ups.

That's the real issue. It doesn't seem like you're dissatisfied with the sound quality, but with the hassle of the stuff it takes to achieve it. If that's the case, why on earth would you want to chuck a good pickup system for all the struggles of getting a mic to work well? I'm not being a wise guy or anything, but don't chuck your pickups my friend. You'll be back to them after six months of battling feedback, bleed over, being chained to a mic, extra trips to the car, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Like I said, I'm not being a wise guy, but if you only do this once in a while, why not get a Godin or an Ovation and stop the struggle? The folks on the dance floor are too busy with their own thing to notice, and they don't care one tiny bit how much the musicians have to work to achieve their goals. Half of them would be content if you banged a teacup with a spoon.

Corollary to Tim's Rule: They're all dancing and don't care.

[mandroid]

Maybe a SM57 on a stand will do the job, seems time tested.

Or at least have one on hand to see if it works before chucking the kit you have ...

Q: Your group stand or sit,(Bass player excepted), for the whole night?



Maybe theres a carpentry solution, build an acoustic reflecting bowl within the band stand,

and leave the PA entirely off.

Straight Acoustic players at the Contra dances in this County. it's in a Grange Hall.

[foldedpath]

If you use a small diaphragm cond mic it is more focused and you have to be closer and right in front of the mic. If you used a large diaphragm when set up right it will pick up anything around it in about a 2-3 foot radius. You might pick up instruments next to you if you have the mic too hot that's where good EQ comes in.

Jim, that hasn't been my experience, and it's not borne out in the specs for different mics as far as I can tell. The "reach" of a mic is the sensitivity spec, and it's determined by the head gain amp (in a condenser mic), and the location of the capsule in the grill. Small diaphragm mics can be just as hot in output as a large diaphragm mic using the same pattern. If you're seeing differences, it might just be a low output small condenser, or different pattern characteristics.

The main reason I'd recommend a small diaphragm condenser for Rob (like the AT Pro37 if that's what budget permits), is that they are generally more accurate in sound reproduction than a large diaphragm mic. The smaller capsule is better at capturing transients from acoustic instruments, and the frequency response is usually flatter off-axis. That's especially important in live sound use, because musicians don't always remain on-axis during a performance the way a singer does.

[foldedpath]

That's the real issue. It doesn't seem like you're dissatisfied with the sound quality, but with the hassle of the stuff it takes to achieve it. If that's the case, why on earth would you want to chuck a good pickup system for all the struggles of getting a mic to work well? I'm not being a wise guy or anything, but don't chuck your pickups my friend. You'll be back to them after six months of battling feedback, bleed over, being chained to a mic, extra trips to the car, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Well, why shouldn't he at least try it, to see if it works for him? That's only a $120 mic, so it's not a huge risk if it doesn't work. He can always use it to record with later, or flog it on Ebay.

Like I said, I'm not being a wise guy, but if you only do this once in a while, why not get a Godin or an Ovation and stop the struggle? The folks on the dance floor are too busy with their own thing to notice, and they don't care one tiny bit how much the musicians have to work to achieve their goals. Half of them would be content if you banged a teacup with a spoon.

Corollary to Tim's Rule: They're all dancing and don't care.

Except when they're not dancing, and when maybe they do care?

You're not trying to be a wise guy, I know... but with respect, I think you are making a general recommendation based on your own experience, as if everyone's audience and playing situation can be described that way, and everyone should be making the same choices you've made.

Sometimes our trio plays in situations where it's a noisy bar and only half the crowd is listening, or a Contra Dance where it wouldn't matter if we were using pickups. Other times it's a small room with everyone quiet and listening. Except for a few performances every year, our band plays all instrumental music. Without a singer, the sound of our instruments is all we've got, and we'd better sound good!

Audience aside, I care what our instruments sound like to me, while I'm playing. I don't like the sound of pickups. I do like the sound of microphones, and I've invested in speakers and monitors where that difference can be heard. It's also so the other band members can feel good about their sound, and not have to hassle with a pile of preamps or EQ boxes ahead of the mixer. They just clip on a mini-condenser mic, wired straight to the mixer (or via wireless for the fiddler) and we're ready to roll with no extra hassles. It would be the same if we used external mics. The clip-ons just give us a little more gain before feedback and I don't have to carry extra mic stands.

Reading Rob's post where he says he's struggling with all the extra gear needed to make pickups sound "natural," it sounds like he's coming from a similar perspective. I hear what you're saying about extra trips to the car, but it's actually less work for a multi-instrumentalist using a single mic, if it replaces a bunch of preamps and pedals and wires with multiple instrument pickups.

P.S. (edit, because I forgot to add this): Again, everyone's situation is different, so don't assume that works for our trio will work for everyone either. If there's a method you haven't tried, and it might be better than what you're using now, then give it a shot! You'll never know unless you try it.

[Charlieshafer]

Just had a concert last night, with an after show contra dance for 200 people. The featured fiddler used this microphone: Crown GLM I will tell you that she's not the first to use this mic, all you need is a board with phantom power, no extra junk. We found it very easy to mix and control, no feedback, you can easily fix it to your bridge with an alligator clip, you can hold it up close and sing into it if you want, and the sound quality was excellent. I loved it as a sound guy, and then after the show, used it, and found it exceptionally easy to play with. See what you think.

[Rob Gerety]

Was that by any chance the Notorious gig? In Greenfield?

[Tim2723]

FP, you're right. I am making a recommendation based on my experience. But in the end, isn't that all any of us can do? Nobody has to do it my way, unless it makes sense to them to do so. Putting a mic on a stand was recommended as well. The great thing about these Internet communities is that you can use the advise you need and ignore the rest.

[Shelagh Moore]

If I'm not using my clamp-on Microvox condenser and preamp (my preferred option) I use either a Shure SM57 (dynamic) or a Rode M3 (powered condenser) depending on the situation.

[fred d]

I agree with another poster that if your not singing just use a pickup my Gt 110 came with a buit in pickup and I just take a small amp and a 20 ft chord in a big area with built in amps I just set my small one close to a mic no feed back or back ground noice

[allenhopkins]

I think the Shure SM-57 is a good "first cut" at the situation. It's sorta the universal baseline of dynamic instrument mics. I'm using some 30-year-old AKG's that are long since obsolete -- very bright and crisp.

Contra dance is a very interesting acoustical situation. On the one hand, many dancers only care about the caller and the beat, and some melody somewhere. On the other hand, when playing a dance, one wants to be heard with decent volume and fidelity. Don't think there's any single simple answer; some dances are markedly noisier than others, some rooms demand more volume, some are big-barn acoustical-disaster school gyms, some would work fine with just a fiddle mic and a piano.

Concur with one thing Tim said: don't rip the pickups out of your instruments, even if you go "mic." The odd high-volume situation may arise where the mic's just not manageable without unacceptable feedback. As an inveterate multi-instrumentalist, I only use mics, 'cause I can't feature installing 14 or 15 pickups in all the instruments I use on different occasions. But, had I a regular dance-band gig, I might relent and buy one of Tim's perverted li'l "acoustic"-electrics (jus' kiddin', Tim!), to cover those times when a mic "just won't do" -- or at least, when you can't figure out a way to fight the feedback.

[Tim2723]

What the heck is an invertebrate multi-instrumentalist? Just kidding!

Edit: But then again, considering all the instruments you play, it would make sense if you're really an octopus in disguise.

[liestman]

Most of my public playing has been for contras, on mandolins and guitar. I too use the Crown GLM (200 model). I made a thin aluminum plate the the mic is taped to and then the plate and wire covered with thin leather (no scratches) this plate is made to hold the mic just the right distance off the instrument top (about an inch), mic aimed toward the center of the instrument, plate taped with masking tape to the lower side of the instrument. I only change back and forth a couple times a night so this moving of the mic is painless, but it would be a hassle if moving it more frequently. Anyway, with the mic attached to the instrument, I feel like I am playing acoustic, as I can move and not worry about the motion varying the sound. If I were moving between instruments more, I would put the thing on the end of a boom. The sound quality from this mic is excellent and works fine in relatively loud situations, although my instruments are rather loud on their own.

[Charlieshafer]

Hey John, I'd love to see a photo of your arrangement for the GLM for mandolin. It sounds like it makes a lot of sense, and captures the sound well. Does the plate act like a sound-catching funnel of sorts, or am I misunderstanding?

[Mike Romkey]

This is a question without a right answer. Any and all of the above will work. It just depends on the setting and what you want the headache to be.

I started with a pickup, went to mics, went to condenser mics, went to really expensive condenser mics ... and have ended up buying an AKG C411 contact mic into an ART Tube preamp into the board. At long last relative happiness. There's one for sale in classifieds for $120. (Not mine!) Good deal.

An SM57 is a great simple solution. A Beta 57 is even better. Once you get into the small and large diaphragm condensers, things become complicated fast with the PA, the room, the crowd noise. Can't beat them for recording. Live, they feedback, pick up crowd noise, etc. Condensers are great if the conditions are conducive and even better if you have someone good paying attention at the board.

My suggestion would be to find a contact mic and pre that works well without a ton of EQ. That way, the sound is "there." If you're not loud enough, you turn it up a little. If you're too loud, you turn it down a little. But if you don't have the right setup -- my original problem -- they sound terrible.

Have you checked out the Fishman modeling pedal things? I hear good things about them too.

[liestman]

Hey John, I'd love to see a photo of your arrangement for the GLM for mandolin. It sounds like it makes a lot of sense, and captures the sound well. Does the plate act like a sound-catching funnel of sorts, or am I misunderstanding?

No the plate is not like for a PZM microphone. I needed to attach the mic, and unlike on a fiddle there was nowhere to clamp a tie clasp type attachment, so I made a more or less triangular plate about 3 inches on a side, which gives me a wide enough thing to masking tape to the sides of the mando (Sobell or National RM1) or the sides of the guitar (Mossman). The plate is slightly curved, to conform to the curved sides. The mic stands up proud of the exposed point of the triangle. I found the sweet spots on both mandos about 2 inches "south" of the neck (also keeps it out of the picking zone) and 3 inches south of the neck on the guitar. My first attempt, seriously, was using a popsicle stick but it lacked enough surface for masking tape attachment! (Nothing but the best, eh?) Actually, when I also need to play uilleann pipes, I made a mic stand out of a block off a 2x6 with a half inch dowel coming up 20 inches, and I tape the mic to the top. Since I always sit, it works well and something about the all-wood nature of the stand makes it, I dunno, more acoustic?!? (I do own some nice booms but just leave them at home all the time since this set up works and is very easy to transport in my Mini Cooper boot, with the guitar in the passenger seat.)

[Charlieshafer]

Now I get it. Sounds like it works just fine. As per the dowels, you missed a great opportunity at both instant adjustability and causing the audience to gasp in disbelief when you didn't use colored Tinker Toys. That would have been cool! Portable, easily folded, disconnected, added on to, whatever! Even cooler would have been to use an old Erector Set, but then there might have been grounding issues, electrocution, you know, THOSE problems. Better still (or really stupid) get an old bicycle racing "helmet" (the old leather ones, better for breathability) and stick the GLM off a gooseneck attached to the helmet. Instant adjustability!

[Paul Kotapish]

For years I thought I needed to plug in, and I spent a lot of time and money to get the very best plugged-in setup I could--custom Baggs and Fishman pickups, handmade mini condenser, stereo output, high-end preamp/mixer/EQ/etc. At best, it sounded pretty good, but never exactly what I was shooting for, and I was never satisfied with the various solutions I tried for managing changes in dynamics, attack, etc.

About a decade ago I started doing gigs with a mic on a stand again and I've never looked back. The sound is almost always much, much better than what I could get with an optimum plugged-in setup, and I never have to deal with the myriad maintenance issues and on-stage glitches such as ground-loop hum that can plague a plugged-in setup. I miss the flexibility of being able to move anywhere on stage, but it's a minor trade-off for the much improved sound and the ability to shape the dynamics by moving in and out of the mic and getting some air around the sound.

There are times when I want to play hard but be far off the mic and times I want to play whisper soft and play right into the mic, and those differences work vastly better when I'm not tethered to an on-board mic and pickup. With the plugged-in setup I found that I had to maintain an extremely even attack all the time to maintain the sweet spot, and that what sounded great for line playing usually sounded lousy for punching out chops and vice versa.

Playing with a mic has it's disadvantages, but getting a sufficient level from the mic without feedback is almost never a problem--far less of a problem than dealing with various technical issues from the plugged-in setup. My observation is that unplugging also enhances one's awareness of the overall acoustic environment, and often the best, most musical solution to volume issues is simply turning everything--front of house and monitors--DOWN. It's amazing how much you can hear when you aren't trying to listen through bleeding eardrums.

I am usually happy with whatever the sound engineer provides, but I carry an SM-57 and an AKG C1000 -- nothing-fancy, road-worthy workhorses -- just in case. They almost always sound just fine.

Obviously scholars differ on this, but I'd urge you to try the mic thing. For me it was a technological step backwards into a better sound that made a huge improvement in my enjoyment of time on stage. YMMV.

[liestman]

Now I get it. Sounds like it works just fine. As per the dowels, you missed a great opportunity at both instant adjustability and causing the audience to gasp in disbelief when you didn't use colored Tinker Toys. !

When you said "didn't" you left off the important word - "yet"!

[Rob Gerety]

Right now for guitar I have a Baggs M1 passive and a Baggs Para DI. So that's about $250 - $275. Works ok - great on the bass side but not the most acoustic sound I've ever heard. I have to futz with the eq to get it to sound its best. For mandolin I have a Schertler Dyn G and a Schertler Pre. So that's another $550 - $600 (I bought used). It sounds pretty darn good. But, I have to futz with the eq to get it to sound its best.

So I have around $750 (minimum) tied up in this stuff and its a hassle frankly to deal with it.

My gut tells me I could buy a $125 mic and a good mic stand and it would probably sound better without all the messing around with gizmos. I'm just not sure. Maybe I'll try a mic for a while.

[Charlieshafer]

Maybe I'll try a mic for a while.[/QUOTE]

I think you'll like it, for all the reasons Paul listed a couple of posts above. But for now, I gotta find the tinker toys in the basement...

[Bill Van Liere]

Rob, I always carry a Beta 57 and a AT Pro 37 with me. I play many Contra Dances and concerts alike. I prefer the 57 in noisy situations like dances and when feedback situations arise. Although I don't think the sound is as good as the Pro 37, which is great for multi-instrument/quieter situations, I am surprised at how many times the 57 has kept me out of trouble. The AKG C1000 is also great with it's battery operation. My wife and I will sometimes use this mike by itself when we get a gig as a duo.