The F-5L Mandolin - A turning point in the history of Gibson's ac

[Bernie Daniel]

Thanks Bill Junior! This remarkable story just keeps growing. Two things:

1) Now that this piece in the life of 71568197 has been elucidated can some of you who had personal contact with Monroe over the years in question (circa 1978 to the early '90's) take a look at your photos and recordings again to see if still photos or audio and video tape of this mandolin in action on stage?

2) I don't completely follow the end number sequence of "197" of this mandolin. Shouldn't the number of this mandolin have been something like 71568003? Since it was the third F5-L where the last three digits 001 to 499 indicated the Kalamazoo plant?

Maybe a different way to think about it is how does this mandolin made by Aaron Cowles relate to the other prototype mentioned in Roger's original essay? To quote the article:
"Gibson F-5L #71598129, one of the three prototypes made for the Summer 1978 NAMM show in Chicago. This instrument was built by Gibson luthier Wilbur Fuller." This one would have been signed on June 9, 1978 159) but it carries #129 as the last three digits?

I guess this last part of the number (197 vs 129) must refer to some other aspect of the Gibson instrument production process?

[hank]

Bernie I came up with 159=June 8th 156=June 5th. Am I correct that Aaron Cowles signature date June 20th is the finished product where the serial number date is the finished in the white date? I'm baffled as well on the last three digits unless they were considered prototype with special designators specific to each of those three builds with #001 starting after the first three prototypes. I didn't see in my search how to read modern Gibson serial numbers but I'm guessing from my FGR signed April 13th 2006 by Casey O'Sullivan 60413020 that the first and second or first and sixth digits=year with the third=the month and the fourth and fifth the day. The sequential number at the end with either the last three or two digits. year 06, month April, day 13th, the twentieth F5Gold Rush.

[edance]

I am not tooup on Gibson Mandoin serial numbering system. One of the threads state that from 1970 to 1985 Gibson used eight digit numbers. My F-12 has six numbers. 417904 I bought this instrument new in 1974 or 75. Can some one provide the meaning of this nmber?

Ed

[f5loar]

Ed, A 400000 number would be made in 1974/75 so sounds like yours is indeed a 1974 most likely if you got in late 1974 or early 1975 as there was some lag time on delivery from time of order on the F5s and F12 both still custom ordered instruments.
These years and numbers can be found in Gruhn's Guide To Vintage Instruments.

[Bernie Daniel]

Hank: "Bernie I came up with 159=June 8th 156=June 5th."

We could both be right it varies one number for a leap year for any date after Feb. 29th. (:

edance: "...threads state that from 1970 to 1985 Gibson used eight digit numbers. My F-12 has six numbers..."

Yes, the 1990 F5-L I looked at last week had 6 numbers as well and did not follow the 8-digit model described either.

(wish I knew why the "reply with quote" and "advanced" button do not work about half the time -- I'm thinking it happens mostly with Firefox)

[Bill Junior]

In response to the question about hearing the 1978 F5L in action, here are a couple of options. There is a video segment at the end of the first Monroe mandolin instructional DVD by Homsepun, which shows the 1980 concert at the White House. Bill Monroe is playing the 1978 F5L at this event. It was still relatively new at the time. In addition, Smithsonian Folkways produced several records with Bill Monroe and Doc Watson, and I know that at least one song, “Paddy on the Turnpike,” was taken from that White House concert in 1980. I am sure the DVD now available will allow folks to hear the tonal characteristics of the mandolin much better than the video. There may be other tunes from that event that have been produced on a record, but I haven’t had time to thoroughly research that question.

Here are the details.

The Mandolin of Bill Monroe (DVD One)
One-On-One with the Master
Smithsonian Folkway Recordings and Homespun Video


Bill Monroe & Doc Watson
Live Recordings 1963-1980: Off the Record Volume 2
Smithsonian Folkway Recordings

[f5loar]

Bill, In that promo photo of Monroe with this F5L you will notice a rather large piece of wood stuffed up in the lower end of the pickguard. Do you know why Monroe had to put in that piece of wood on this mandolin?

[Bernie Daniel]

In response to the question about hearing the 1978 F5L in action, here are a couple of options. There is a video segment at the end of the first Monroe mandolin instructional DVD by Homsepun, which shows the 1980 concert at the White House. Bill Monroe is playing the 1978 F5L at this event. It was still relatively new at the time....

Great tip! The DVD has five numbers played on the F5-L by Monroe: Uncle Pen, Blue Moon of Kentucky, Rawhide, Rabbit in a log and Paddy on the Turnpike beautiful video of the mandolin and the performers -- it seems like a thousand years ago....

[Bill Junior]

F5Loar:

That's a good question. It does look like a piece of wood, maybe a dowel, stuck under the pickguard. I don't know anything about that.

Or could it just be a strange reflection in the mandolin finish?

Junior

[Bernie Daniel]

Bill, In that promo photo of Monroe with this F5L you will notice a rather large piece of wood stuffed up in the lower end of the pickguard. Do you know why Monroe had to put in that piece of wood on this mandolin?

Can you provide a link to that pic? Thanks!

[evanreilly]

I always thought it was a cork that Bill had placed under the pickguard to keep it from vibrating/shaking loose when he beat on it.
the picture is the Decca/MCA promo picture that was current then.
I have it somewhere and when I find it, I'll scan it.

[f5loar]

The story of the piece of wood goes back to when I went to see Monroe at a show in NC on 2/7/1986. He had the F5L with the pickguard on it and I asked him backstage before the show why was there a piece of wood jammed under it. He says he calls this mandolin "old Rattler" and then took out the piece of wood and showed me how it would make a really bad rattle when it did not have the hand carved piece of wood under it. Dumb me asked Monroe why didn't he just take the pickguard off since he was use to picking without one anyway. And his exact words were " Oh I can't hardly do that it was on there when they give it to me". It's an old folks belief that if someone gives you a gift you are not suppose to alter it in anyway as they may want it back. So Monroe simply adapted for the problem without altering the mandolin. I then handed him my '23 F5 without the pickguard and he was most appreciative to be able to pick it that night. He even got inspired enough to perform his newly written instrumental "Lloyd Loar" on it. The next week I called Charlie Derrington at Gibson and told him about the pickguard problem and said it was not good for Gibson's image for Monroe going around with a piece of wood jammed up in the pickguard. Charlie got the mandolin back from Monroe for a quick repair and removed the pickguard and gave it back to him. So that would be what happened to that pickguard. Most agree that particular '78 F5L is one of the best they ever made.

[Bill Halsey]

More great history from one who lived it. Thank you, Tom!

[siminoff]

Don't let the sequence of the last three numbers throw you. This was the number assigned to that instrument of all the instruments in the Gibson plant that were in the final white-wood sequence that day. So, for example, one number lower it could have been a Les Paul, and one number higher could have been a jumbo acoustic guitar, etc.
Roger

[Bernie Daniel]

Don't let the sequence of the last three numbers throw you. This was the number assigned to that instrument of all the instruments in the Gibson plant that were in the final white-wood sequence that day. So, for example, one number lower it could have been a Les Paul, and one number higher could have been a jumbo acoustic guitar, etc.
Roger

Thanks Roger. I kinda eventually came to a conclusion that it was something like that.

But its still a bit confusing if because it was specified that 0 - 499 is Kalamazoo plant production and 500 and above is some other production site?

Maybe that was an original stipulation that was never adhered to?

I say this because it seems to me that one 3-digit number can't specify both the daily production as well as the production site.

Actually its not a big deal because this system which DOES give the year and day in the first 5 numbers is much better than most of Gibson's numbering systems over the years! (<:


Anyway thanks for the great history -- its great that it is now recorded for all to read.

[Bernie Daniel]

F5loar: "Most agree that particular '78 F5L is one of the best they ever made".

For some unknown reason all the best mandolins ended up in Monroe's hands! (<:

Divine intervention?

[Bill Junior]

F5Loar:

The wood stuck in the pickguard incident is 'Classic Monroe.' Great story. And I am glad to hear Big Mon gave the instrument a name. I've tried out a couple different names for it but was never quite saitisfied with them. Now I know what to call it: Old Rattler.

Junior

[f5loar]

If I remember Monroe had a dog named Old Rattler after the Grandpa Jones song. Funny he did call that mandolin that due to the problem with the pickguard but I don't recall a nickname for his No. 1 mandolin.

[Bill Halsey]

Well, I know of one nickname Mon had intended for #73987. When I heard him explain his reason for leaving the word "The" in the headstock, he said had in mind to get someone to inlay a replacement for the company name so it would read "The Thing".

Of course, all that has long since been laid to rest, much to Gibson's credit.

[carleshicks]

That would have been pretty funny. He could have went down in History as the guy that played The Thing.

[Bill Junior]

Fellows:

Regarding his trusty 1923 Gibson, Monroe did name that instrument, but not until the twilight of his life. I got this information from Bruce Weber, who was there. In about 1995, Monroe came out here to Bozeman, Montana, maybe to visit the Gibson factory, and as part of his tour some folks took him to Yellowstone Park. He was so taken with his experience at one of the park's signature sites, that he decided to name his mandolin, "Old Faithful." When you consider the length of Monroe's amazing career and the role that mandolin played in it, I can't think of a better name for the instrument.

Not many people know this story.

Junior

[hank]

I'm glad Gibson straightened that out. Old Faithful is way more better than The Thing.

[Jim Triggs]

I have enjoyed reading this thread with great information regarding the F5L and Roger Siminoff’s importance in Gibson history. If it wasn’t for Roger’s book and efforts no one knows where the mandolin’s place in today’s music market would be. I may have some anecdotal additions to the Bill Monroe story regarding his relationship with Gibson which many may not be aware of. Sorry this is kind of a long read.

Last year when rumors began surfacing about Monroe’s headplate being auctioned I had an interest in checking out the story. Several people contacted me asking if I knew anything about it. Over the years I had never heard that his original headplate existed and while working at Gibson I never recall Charlie Derrington mentioning it. With that being said, I did hear plenty about the restoration that Charlie and several other Custom Shop employees did on Monroe’s July 9th Loar. I didn’t have a hand in that project as I didn’t start with Gibson until the Fall of 1986 but Monroe’s other Loar (that was also damaged)was in my possession for a period of 8-10 months right when I started. It was on my bench and I used it for reference in constructing the first F-5 prototypes that I built there. I didn’t do any restoration work to that mandolin but I did fit the bridge and do all of the final setup work.

My curiosity about the headplate lead me to make two phone calls to investigate. First I called Tim Shaw. Tim was my former boss in the Custom Shop at Gibson. He worked for them while they were still in Kalamazoo and I thought he may know something about the repair. When asked about a saved peghead off of Monroe’s mandolin Tim was surprised to hear that one existed. He went on to mention that the repair department had a 2”x4” aluminum bar that was placed on a hot plate. When removing a headplate they would heat up the aluminum and set it on the peghead. Within minutes of applying heat the headplate would come off easily. The thing I found interesting is that he said after this process there would be a 2”x4” brand burnt right in the middle of the headplate and that the ivoroid celluloid binding would have lit up and melted with the intense heat.

My next call was to George Gruhn. He also hadn’t ever heard that the peghead was saved and doubted that it existed. We went on to talk about Monroe’s Loar for a while and discussed the fall-out between Monroe and Gibson and him carving their logo off of the peghead. He then told me if I wanted to hear the story of how Monroe and Gibson made amends I should ask the man that got them back together. He said I should call Billy Grammer. I was surprised to hear that Billy got Monroe and Gibson on speaking terms again. George insisted that I just call him up. I mentioned to George that I didn’t know Billy was still alive and he said, “He may be old but he’s certainly not dead”, and then gave me Billy’s number. He told me it may take a couple times to reach him but once you get a hold of him expect a thorough version of the story.

After trying to get a hold of Mr. Grammer for two days he finally answered. He was pretty tight-lipped the first five minutes or so while I was telling him who I was. I filled him in on my history with Gibson and mentioned that I dealt with Monroe for six years and had set up his mandolin during my time there. I told him George Gruhn suggested that I call him to get the story about Monroe and Gibson first hand. He said, “I remember it like it was yesterday.” He said he was backstage at The Grand Ole Opry and there were four gentleman from The Gibson factory in Kalamazoo there standing in the hallway. He knew the Gibson folks well as they had built him some custom guitars over the years. Rendall Wall and Jim Duerloo were the ones that he knew. There were two other guys from Gibson there and one was holding a mandolin case.

They told him they had built Monroe a brand new mandolin and that they wanted to patch things up with Bill and get his mandolin fixed the way it should be. This included getting the scroll right and inlaying Gibson back in the peghead. They offered to fly the mandolin back to Michigan with them. They had purchased a seat for it in the First Class section of the plane and also took out a $50,000 insurance policy on the mandolin in case anything happened to it while it was in Gibson’s possession. They said they’d repair it and deliver it back to Monroe in 90 days.

The Gibson folks knew Bill was at the Opry that night but were unsure how to approach him about the repair. One of them asked Billy if he would talk to Monroe for them. Billy went into Monroe’s dressing room and was filling him in on the situation. Bill was apprehensive at first but he changed his tune when Billy asked him why he was mad at Gibson and Monroe said that it had been so long he couldn’t even remember. Billy told Monroe about all of the nice custom guitars he had received from the Gibson factory and how great their quality was at the time. He told Monroe that they had a beautiful new mandolin for him to use while they fixed his old one and told him about the insurance policy and the seat on the plane. He asked Billy if it were him, would he have them do the work. He convinced Monroe that he didn’t have anything to lose and Monroe said he’d do it as he thought the feud had gone on too long and he hated the way the mandolin looked with no scroll on it.

Billy brought in the folks from Gibson and they made their deal with Monroe. He said three months later they delivered the repaired mandolin to Bill’s office which he thought was up in a trailer he had in Goodlettsville at the time. When I asked Billy if he ever heard about the old headplate he said, “I never heard of that and I never saw it. Bill never said anything to me about it so I can’t speak to that but I did help get Monroe and Gibson back together.”

Before my conversation with Mr. Grammer was over he went on to fill me in on how the Opry took away his membership because he was now legally blind. He also told me that Gibson offered him the head QC job at the Nashville plant when they were in the process of moving from Kalamazoo. I thought his story was interesting enough to share with all of you on the cafe. It’s amazing to think that all of this stuff happened 30 years ago now.

For those that don’t know who Billy Grammer is you should look him up. He was a country star known most for his song “Gotta Travel On.” He and his band were playing at the location Gov. George Wallace was giving his speech when there was an assassination attempt on him during his campaign for Presidential Election. He also was the founder and co-owner of Grammer Guitars.

[f5loar]

I knew Grammer had become blind but I did not know that is why he is no longer a member of the Opry. That's a shame they are doing that to Grammer and some other old time Opry members. Most gave every weekend of their lives to the Opry for their fans often playing the same No. 1 hit(s) for decades over and over. I guess Doc Watson never had a chance at becoming a member!
Those of us who lived during the first repair to the peghead of Monroe's Loar felt like the crack in the Liberty Bell had been repaired. The broken scroll and removed Gibson logo was part of the legend. While Monroe had independent luithers like Randy Wood to work on his Loar during the Gibson feud years he never asked any of them to fix the peghead when they could have easily done it. Not long after that you saw the endorsement of the Gibson Monroe Signature Bronze strings. There was more to it then just a willingness to fix the peghead. Giving him a new F5L sure helped seal the deal.

[MikeEdgerton]

This thread just gets better by the day. Thanks to all for adding this piece of history to the mandolin world.