Embergher orchestra no. 1 restoration questions

[Benjamin T]

Recently, I acquired a 1926 embergher orchestra model no. 1. I am beginning to look at the restoration of this humble instrument. I had a reputable luthier look at it to confirm my thoughts about what course(s) of action are possible and necessary. It needs a new fretboard as the original one has been worked on and much of it has been subtracted in the process. The ribs have some separation and the soundboard is in danger of collapse. The soundboard is buckling near the neck and the braces are failing where the bridge sits. Those are the structural issues. My main question is regarding replacement of the soundboard. Should I go with a new spruce top or have the old top flattenned and reinforced? I am torn between my concerns as a conservator of the hand of the original maker and my desire to have a great and long lasting relationship with what could be a mighty machine with some improvements available to modern day luthiers.

[Jim Garber]

My first question is where geographically you are located. I still cannot quite figure out who the best people are in North America to take on a restoration of Embergher mandolins or, for that matter, any quality vintage bowlback. If you are in Europe, it would be easier and I can suggest someone.

Personally I would replace the top only as a desperate last measure. It sort of depends on how bad the warpage of the top is. This is an instrument that would be worth sinking some money into to make it playable. The top would have to be removed if there is considerable warpage -- if the warpage is mild there are methods that can be used without removing the top.

Braces can be glued and the ribs can also be mended by someone who knows what they are doing. Unfortunately, these are very different from carved top instruments and even from some flattop ones. Even the most reputable luthiers often turn away from tackling such a job.

What was done to the fretboard? Did someone grind it down? IMHO fretboards do wear out and while it will affect the value somewhat, I think that replacing the soundboard -- the real sonic heart of the instrument -- would seriously devalue the mandolin. I look fwd to hear what others think on this subject.

Bear in mind that the fretboard is radiused with a zero fret in this year of manufacture. These would also be bar frets.

You might post some photos to illustrate the state of this mandolin.

[Martin Jonas]

Obviously it would need an experienced bowlback luthier to deal with this, as it's clearly well beyond amateur lutherie. I agree with Jim that you should not replace the soundboard under almost any circumstances -- with a new soundboard it's simply no longer an Embergher. These soundboards are very thin and they can often be coaxed back into shape by humidification and fixing the braces. That's a professional job, obviously, as the details are much trickier than this brief summary. As I recall, Jim's own Embergher Tipo A had a sunken soundboard with a dip in the fretboard extension because of a loose brace, and Jon Springall was able to bring it back to its original shape in that way. Rib separations are usually not that difficult to deal with in bowlbacks (again assuming the luthier knows what he's doing).

Regarding the fretboard, again I would agree with Jim that a replacement will somewhat diminish collector's value, but is greatly preferable to playing with a damaged or inadequate original fretboard. It depends on what the condition of the board is. I haven't seen a Model No. 1 in person -- the higher models have a radiussed fretboard whereas the Tipo A (which Jim and I both own) has a flat fretboard with radiussed frets.

Martin

[Margriet]

Sinking top is also my problem. One of the braces of my Embergher nr 2 was already glued, by a former owner, but it was a bit loosened. Our luthier, Embergher specialist Hendrik van den Broek, tried to glue it through the soundhole. I played it a few months, and it did not keep, it loosened again, because it was glued before and you cannot remove well old glue through the soundhole.
Going on playing as it is, makes it worse, so I put off the strings and gave it rest, while I searched another instrument to play on. Hendrik says that probably the only solution will be is lifting the top. This is a very delicate job, which asks lots of accuracy, patience, time ( and of course – if it is someone’s earning) money. After the top has been lifted, the braces have to be glued again, maybe there are more that need to be done. Also this work needs accuracy and knowing what you are doing, so knowledge and experience, craftmanship, luthiers work.
You will always have traces , I mean you will see after the work that the top has been lifted. But my instrument will be playable again. And for longer time. As Hendrik does not have the time to do the lifting, my husband is considering to do the lifting himself, with support and advise. After succes ( which I really hope there is) Hendrik will look for the braces. It is risky, but I am afraid I have no other choice.
I think Dave Hynds also did lifting… and somewhere (where…?) on the forum here there is a thread where he helps.
In your case Benjamin, I hope you will also find a luthier who can do it for you, or that you find a kind of cooperation. I would not replace the top. As said, it is the heart of the instrument, with the soundbars. Since I have seen this ( copying photos failed, sorry)

on the website of Sinier de Ridder http://sinierderidder.free.fr/( look at “restoration”) I think there is possible a lot !
The condition of this one is far more worse than that of mine.
(Also this one has got a new fingerboard and there were ribs to be glued and put in shape)
I wish you succes !

[Jim Garber]

Here is the Sinier-DeRidder Restoration page that Margriet mentions. it is pretty frightening. I have seen other mandolins with top warpage but that one was extreme.

This instrument was left abandoned, strings in tension, for many years with the following consequences :
- important deformations on the top, left and right of the fingerboard

- ungluing and deformation of the ribs and doubling in spruce

We do not want to go over the polemic with the museums in France (see “habilitation-restaurateur-des-musees.com”), we consider that it is necessary to restore the physical and aesthetical aspect of the instrument, but also its function, the possibility to play it. As a matter of fact, the sonority of an instrument is its specificity, its identity, and as such deserves to be restored and saved on the same level as any other object that – as well as being a visual and cultural testimony – brings a technical and mechanical testimony.

The first stage of this restoration consisted in taking apart the various elements composing the instrument. The second was to create molds (sometimes partial) on the exact measures of the instrument, and then put back and press the various pieces. The wood, especially where it is thinner undergoes rather well such treatment, once it is wet and then heated. The pieces are left under press “molded” for quite a while; when we liberated them from their mould, and put back in their original shape.

[Margriet]

Thank you Jim, I do not have the needed experience for this kind of p.c. -stuff. ( I am a self -made ict-er, by lots of trial and error)

I would have liked to put a photo "before" and also "after".
Indeed, it is frightening, and the "after' photos will give hope.

[Benjamin T]

Thank you, all, for you input. You have all confirmed my thoughts about the soundboard.

I am located near Detroit, Michigan. The images of that tipo 2 are very similar to what is occurring with this No.1. It is impossible to say whether or not originally the fret board was radiused or not. It is currently radiused, with a zero fret and brass frets which are radiused as well.

I plan on posting some pictures, soon.

[Graham McDonald]

If your mandolin is showing a significant amount of deformation around the soundhole it means that the neck has moved - rotated upwards - and pressure from the end of the fingerboard has caused the deformation. I suspect the only cure will be to remove the fingerboard and the soundboard, then re-brace the soundboard (either using the original braces if they have not deformed, or making new ones of the same size) and re-attach the soundboard and fingerboard, pulling the neck back to the correct angle to the plane of the soundboard. The higher end Emberghers have a very arched fingerboard, similar in profile to a violin, and noticeably thinner on the treble side. Tricky and fiddly work, especially removing the purfling and binding without damage. Have fun with it!

cheers

[Jim Garber]

Benjamin: did you buy that one from Greece? I mean: this 1926 Embergher?

I can see that it is very difficult to see the problems. Whoever bought it got it at an amazing price even if the condition were fair. There is plenty of room there for quality restoration.

Post some photos when you can of the problems.

[Benjamin T]

yes, that is the one. I am glad to hear you think it was an amazing price. I think so too. I will post photos over the weekend.

[Benjamin T]

I have finally taken some images of the Embergher 1926 no. 1, which will be restored.

Note: The bar frets have been removed as they were all falling out.

Because I had to see something beautiful, I cleaned the hardware.

[Jim Garber]

Phew!! That poor baby has been thru quite a lot. The upside is that as an Embergher, it would be worth putting money into proper restoration -- as opposed to any run of the mill mandolin. Do you have someone who will restore it for you.

From your photos, I would say that yours is no way near as dire as the Sinnier-DeRidder restoration. On the other hand, it will take a lot and someone who truly knows what he or she is doing and is knowledgeable about Emberghers, which are different from even other Italian bowlbacks.

Kurt DeCorte in Belgium, can supply you with the tailpiece cover and the small lever that holds it on. It looks like you have the original tailpiece base.

Good luck on finding someone in the US who can truly restore this.

[crazymandolinist]

How is Embergher pronounced?

[Jim Garber]

Like it looks with a silent "h". I think the family probably added the "h" so it would be pronounced with a hard "g" in Italian.

[Benjamin T]

I have revisited this restoration. I have been told by another luthier, licensed to work on Strads, that I should try the work myself. I am an artist and woodworker for many years. I feel confident that I can bring it back to shape. Of course I will be learning Embergher's construction techniques as I go, but I have the right "toolbox" to aid me. Yesterday, I removed the Fretboard, which came off in three pieces due to the thin condition of the fret board. I will reuse this fretboard. It is not an ebony fret board, as it has been dyed, and is much softer. I also removed the purfling, binding, and soundboard. I went slowly, slowly, slowly. I will post images shortly.

[Jim Garber]

Sounds like you are an experience luthier also and will take this restoration slowly and seriously. Good luck. There are quite a few experts here who can guide you, some who have even been down this road before.