Well-known builders who say instruments don't open up?

[Explorer]

The title should say it all, but in case it's not clear, I'll go a little further.

Often when the subject of an instrument opening up raises its head, there is much commentary about how the existence of the phenomenon is "controversial." I've wondered how controversial it really is, especially since it's only a vocal few on the internet, none of whom seem to be established builders. On the other side, all the well-known builders on this forum have come in strongly and vocally about opening up.

I recently heard someone talk about another supposed "controversy," and likening it to someone arguing that the earth being round and circling the sun are also supposedly controversial to some, but accepted by most based on the evidence. (Incidentally, I didn't know some folks still argue for geocentrism and the flat earth, but I found through a web search that, apparently, belief in modern astronomy is a sure path to godless communism... according to a small but non-zero group of folks. Who knew? *laugh*)

Anyway, the people who work with astronomy are confronted with evidence about celestial motion all the time.

Similarly, people who are highly established builders of wooden fretted instruments have *never* argued that, through vibration/flexing, an instruments vibrates/flexes more easily in those ways.

Luthiers do sometimes follow design paths which are not the beaten path, so it's clear that they are not a monolithic block. Sometimes what is explored becomes standard practice. With that in mind, it's interesting that one never hears of an acclaimed builder who comes out strongly against opening up.

So, with that in mind, I ask... are there any well-known, established builders who have come out against the phenomenon of opening up?

If you want to argue about the existence of the phenomenon, but don't actually have a builder in mind, or are not yourself a well established builder who is ready to come out publicly, I do ask that you start another thread. Why insist on trolling if one has been asked politely? This is not a thread to argue about what you personally would accept as scientific evidence, but is instead asking about those who build such instruments and who are well known, and their observations. If you have to start arguing "controversy!", but don't have an example of controversy among the builders, then you might not be able to see it as plainly as some, but you've already lost the argument. *laugh*

Similarly, I've known people who have built very few instruments, and who haven't yet built the kind of reputation which is inarguable. I'm not too worried about some flash in the pan who hasn't arrived yet.

If there really is a controversy among the builders, then provide an example. For whatever reason, I've never seen anyone like Simenoff posting publicly on the board on the other side, mainly, that wood doesn't become more flexible the more it's flexed.

----

I do hope that someone has an example. As entertaining as it would be to just read reasons why not , well, you know the old saying.

Coulda.

Woulda.

Didn't.

*laugh*

[big smiley guy]

If you expect to hear it open up - you will. If you don't - you won't. Take from that what you will.

[JEStanek]

Roger's surname is spelled Siminoff.

I'm not sure what you are looking for if you'll find any takers but, we'll be watching this one pretty closely. You have already posited that there is variation in people and in builders and their ideas. I haven't seen this as a big controversy.

In my past experience here on the board, most of the established well-known builders who participate in the forums don't seem to have much interested in arguing with one another. To the contrary, they seem more interested in sharing their ideas on building better instruments with each other and with hobby builders. This is part of what makes the site such a valuable resource.

Jamie

[JonZ]

Even better than arguing--I'm sure changes in acoustic properties over time can be measured scientifically, and probably already have been.

[MikeEdgerton]

Even better than arguing--I'm sure changes in acoustic properties over time can be measured scientifically, and probably already have been.

If you do some research here you'll find this argued many times over, that same suggestion comes up each time, and each time it is generally concluded that it can't be measured, thus the confusion as to if the process actually occurs.

[fredfrank]

First I am not a builder, nor do I have any knowledge of a builder coming out for or against this phenomenon. What I will tell you is that I have had mandolins that did open up drastically and I have also had some that didn't do a thing. It didn't seem to matter what price range they were in, either. I had a couple of high dollar mandos that never really developed as well as some not so expensive ones that didn't.

That makes the process of deciding which mandolin to buy a little more difficult. Buying on faith is something I won't do again. My current point of view is that if it doesn't sound good to you when you try it out, don't buy it. It might get better, but it might not. Do you feel lucky? Well, do you?

[John Flynn]

If you do some research here you'll find this argued many times over, that same suggestion comes up each time, and each time it is generally concluded that it can't be measured, thus the confusion as to if the process actually occurs.

That differs from my recollection of those threads. I think it would be more correct to say that something does happen that can be measured, but that it is not conclusive as to what happens, how it happens, how much of it happens, etc. There have been at least a couple of studies cited in previous threads involving violins and at least one with guitars that have had some level of scientific rigor around them, which have showed that both measured frequency response and expert subjective evaulation of the sound of the instrument changed with heavy playing or application of intense vibration. I think a conclusive study could concievably be done. The problem is that no one will ever likely fund such a study on mandolins, so the debate will go on.

[sunburst]

Luthiers are people, they are part of the general population, and as such they have different opinions.
I can tell you that I have had many conversations with luthiers about the "opening up" phenomenon, and like the rest of the general population, opinions differ.
At least one person I've talked to, not really a renowned builder but a renowned repairman, emphatically thinks opening up doesn't happen. Other well educated, scientifically influenced builders think they hear something.

Whether or not "well-known, established builders" will come forth here with their opinions on the subject remains to be seen, but be assured there is no general agreement among luthiers about whether or how much "opening up" goes on.

[Big Joe]

Like many things, there are many aspects to what occurs in the build and life of an instrument. There are many variables. There is a radical difference from a poly finish to an oil varnish finish in this argument as well as wood choices and thicknesses/graduations. In addition, how the instrument is stored, how often it is played, the strings used, the player, the pick. It is possible to measure many things, but to measure all variables would be nearly impossible and really not necessary. Each person and their ear are different and some will hear things others don't. If you like what you hear...go for it. If not, move on. If you are looking for an instrument that will "open up" you have to find one that has the potential for that and then give it the opportunity.

Do they? Yes. If they are made with that possiblility and with the right finishes and strings and stored in a manner conducive to that. No. If they are not capable of maturing and stored in a manner that will limit the opportunity and build too heavily. Maybe could well be the best answer because it gives allowance for all varialbes .

[MikeEdgerton]

That differs from my recollection of those threads. I think it would be more correct to say that something does happen that can be measured, but that it is not conclusive as to what happens, how it happens, how much of it happens, etc. There have been at least a couple of studies cited in previous threads involving violins and at least one with guitars that have had some level of scientific rigor around them, which have showed that both measured frequency response and expert subjective evaulation of the sound of the instrument changed with heavy playing or application of intense vibration. I think a conclusive study could concievably be done. The problem is that no one will ever likely fund such a study on mandolins, so the debate will go on.

If there was any sort of scientific consensus or the ability to measure it I would simply point at the thread that detailed it. If it could be done there are people here that would have done it. This wouldn't be an expensive process. I'll stand by my statement.

[Nelson Peddycoart]

...There is a radical difference from a poly finish to an oil varnish finish in this argument as well as wood choices and thicknesses/graduations....

I am assuming that poly inhibits the ability to open up, and that varnish facilitates it (or doesn't inhibit it). It that correct? I am soon to build my first mandolin and finish is one of my decision points.

Thanks.

[Mandolin Mick]

I'll throw this into the debate ... you can't prove a negative.

[Jim Garber]

[JonZ]

We're not talking quantum mechanics here. Differences in acoustic properties can be measured and analyzed. I guess the controversial part would be--if changes do occur--whether they are good, bad or neutral. The changes could vary from instrument to instrument, and opinions about those changes will vary from player to player. If you love the sound of your mandolin when you buy it, "opening up" could be a bad thing. So, anyone who is looking for a mandolin that will sound perfect to them 10 years from now is taking a gamble by buying one that sounds perfect to them now.

Help... Frozen... Can't choose mandolin!

[MikeEdgerton]

The first question is do changes occur at all. If it was cut and dried there would be a unifying determination. The problem is that those that believe there is an opening up process believe it to be fact, those that don't believe it to happen believe that as fact and the question is always how do you measure it with all the variables. It comes up almost as much as the other two impossible questions to answer. They are what are the best strings to use and what is the best pick to use.

[OldSausage]

When I go shopping for mandolins I always buy whichever one will sound best to me at some indeterminable time in the future

[Gary Hedrick]

It would seem to me that this discussion holds little more in it that to stir a pot. Perhaps it should change and ask "It there a God" or perhaps "Do you still beat your wife"......

This is like getting into any discussion about religion, politics and moral values......too wide .....too deep and too too much

[Willie Poole]

I think as a player plays a mandolin over a period of time the strings settle down in tone a bit, the bridge takes a set to the contour of the top and of course the picker gets more used to the playability of the mandolin...As far as the wood of the instrument changing (opening up) I wouldn`t know but surely some things do happen in time to make SOME mandolins change, I wonder why most builders like to use "aged" wood for the tops and backs? If a bridge is seated properly when the instrument is new that takes away that point, so the picker doesn`t notice much change as time goes on...

I know that I have had some mandolins that sounded worse over a period of time so I had them set up different and they came to life...I find this to be a topic that can never really be answered......Willie

[Fretbear]

Changing out a bridge or even removing, adjusting and replacing the same one will have an effect on response over time. If you have ever changed out a bridge, or played in a brand-new, high-quality mandolin over a decade, you will likely have experienced it first hand.

[Perry]

I can't see how wood can't change over time?

Do you think a four hundred year old piece of red spruce "opens" up after a while? Scroll down:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...138238&page=10

[barney 59]

Changing out a bridge or even removing, adjusting and replacing the same one will have an effect on response over time. If you have ever changed out a bridge, or played in a brand-new, high-quality mandolin over a decade, you will likely have experienced it first hand.

You don't need a decade..you can hear the difference at least some in a month and a lot in a year.

[hank]

Just speakin' the vernacular of the peasantry.

[John Kinn]

You don't need a decade..you can hear the difference at least some in a month and a lot in a year.

Or as I have stated in another post: You can hear the difference in a couple of hours.

[Perry]

Or as I have stated in another post: You can hear the difference in a couple of hours.

Heck my instruments (red spruce tops) open up after 15 minutes of playing! But I suppose that's a different argument.

[Lefty Luthier]

I am not certain how to quantify "Opening Up" but measurable changes do occur as a new instrument's various components that are under stress from string tension relax. Last year I build a new F5 for my personal use and have been taking spectrum measurements each time that I tune. Significant changes in G and D fundamental amplitude have occurred but to my ear, the apparent sound has not changed significantly. I would caution anyone considering the purchase of a new instrument to evaluate it on how it sounds at the time not guess how it will sound at some future date. Changes in string properties, bridge adjustment, etc. are the major drivers in how an instrument sounds at any point in time.