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Thread: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

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    Default Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    Hi all,

    I've been playing and enjoying my new Loar LM-400, which as many of you know does not have any tone bar or braces on its top. I managed to find some previous discussions on what that means as far as the tone and stability of the mandolin goes. However, it also makes me curious as to how widespread this design is. Are there any other mandolins that do not use any braces or tone bars in their construction? If so, what is your experience with them?

    THanks in advance.

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    Default Re: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    Your post makes me wonder that if a mandolin really does not need tonebars, I guess it would not hurt the mandolin structure if you took a little off the bars to increase tone? Maybe its like scalloped braces on a D28? Did Martin Change the construction that much when they made the HD28? Can I sand my tonebars???? Food for thought. Nick
    ntriesch

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    Purveyor of Sunshine sgarrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    I think you will find very very few mandolins without some kind of tone bars.........x bracing, parallel bars, or a transverse brace. They're there for a reason, to shape the tone of the instrument. On guitars, there are plenty of folks who have scalloped the braces on their straight braced guitars. But with so many choices today, it's easier to play both and see which one you like better.

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    I thought the 700 didn't have tone bars, I wasn't aware that the 400 didn't either.

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    Default Re: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    I thought the 700 didn't have tone bars, I wasn't aware that the 400 didn't either.
    Mike - yes the 400 doesn't have tone bars either. It's basically an A version of the 700.

    Gauging from the few responses, I assume that there are indeed very few mandolins (not counting the 'mandolin-shaped objects' that we see often on ebay) that are built with no tone bars or bracing of some sort. It certainly intrigues me to no end why TML decides to build one in such as way, esp. when the goal is to get as close a copy of the original Gibson Loar mandolins as possible.

    I have no complaint about the tone or integrity of my 400. In fact I like it so much that I just sold off my Rover RM-75. But I keep thinking if the tone could be even better: could it have been built with a thinner top that vibrates more freely if it had tone bars? Or, is it lacking a certain sonic range (like the mids) that can only come with having tone bars?

    Lastly, Shaun had brought up the phenomenon of 'brace shaving' that exists in the guitar playing community. And it makes me wonder also that if the oval or F holes are bigger on mandolins, more people would be doing the same experience on their instruments as well.

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    As much as they say they want to copy the original Loar, I don't think that's what they really want to do. I think they want to sell a product and make money and that's not a dishonorable trait.

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    Default Re: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    I think they want to sell a product and make money and that's not a dishonorable trait.
    Definitely agreed and I hope I didn't imply otherwise in my posts. I think TML (and Saga for that matter) are great at their marketing and both have caught on to the vintage craze at the right time. And it just so that they also make nice instruments at the right price point makes it a win win for the beginning and intermediate players like myself who can't afford spending $1-2K for a good mandolin.

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    Default Re: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    If the builder tap tunes the tops with the tone bars attached there wouldn`t be any need to "shave" them, would there? Each builder has a sound that he is trying achieve and that is his trademark so to speak, let them do all of the testing of different size and shapes of tone bars and just look for one that suits your fancy, you`ll know it when that "special" mandolin comes along, the problem is that it might not be for sale when you do hear it.....good post.....Willie

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    Registered User dcoventry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    So, six months later how is the instrument performing. Any top issues??

    I need to do some research into bracing in general. If the top is arched correctly, it should have the necessary integrity? Why brace at all? Adding weight to the top hampers the vibrations, doesn't it?

    dave

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    Default Re: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Triesch View Post
    Your post makes me wonder that if a mandolin really does not need tonebars, I guess it would not hurt the mandolin structure if you took a little off the bars to increase tone? Maybe its like scalloped braces on a D28? Did Martin Change the construction that much when they made the HD28? Can I sand my tonebars???? Food for thought. Nick
    There is an article in an old Mandolin World News describing Grisman and cohorts cutting a triangular hole in the end of the mando so they could shave down tonebars.

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    Default Re: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Bunting View Post
    There is an article in an old Mandolin World News describing Grisman and cohorts cutting a triangular hole in the end of the mando so they could shave down tonebars.
    Wish I'd seen that. Would have been really interesting.

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    Default Re: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cadger View Post
    Wish I'd seen that. Would have been really interesting.
    Dix Bruce may have back issues available.

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    Default Re: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Bunting View Post
    There is an article in an old Mandolin World News describing Grisman and cohorts cutting a triangular hole in the end of the mando so they could shave down tonebars.
    I believe "HOSS" was on a kitchen table at one point with some sharp / bent butter knives ! Norman Blake or someone?? Seems to have worked out alright !

    I tried a little on my 1st build & let me tell ya, it aint to easy or precise !

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    Default Re: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    That story about Hoss might be true and it might not be true. Thats not the way the previous owner tells the history of that mandolin. There is a lot more to that legend , just not as intriguing.
    Last edited by barry k; Jan-27-2011 at 1:34pm. Reason: edit

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    Default Re: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    I understand that Mando Voodoo procedure involves some tone bar shaving, and sanding..
    writing about music
    is like dancing,
    about architecture

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    Default Re: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Triesch View Post
    Your post makes me wonder that if a mandolin really does not need tonebars, I guess it would not hurt the mandolin structure if you took a little off the bars to increase tone? Maybe its like scalloped braces on a D28? Did Martin Change the construction that much when they made the HD28? Can I sand my tonebars???? Food for thought. Nick
    Yes, it's true. You could shave the tone bars out of a Loar and make it sound as good as a "The Loar".

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    Default Re: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    John,

    I sense snark in the above comment. I understand as a luthier you construct the way you do for a purpose. Me too, but not with wood and glue. My question is purely academic which is why I resurrected this thread.

    Why Tone bars in the first place? Why not have them? What is the direct change in not having them? These are educational questions. I don't care either way. I like to immerse myself in my new hobbies, and the mando is my chosen instrument to learn this year, and on into the future I believe. I am liking what I've seen and heard about The Loar's and am looking for input.

    Contempt before investigation has never seved me well, personally, so I ask questions. Ignorance, for me, is not bliss.

    Thank you for all the info I've gotten fromthis site. It's been tremendously helpful.

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    Default Re: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    Tone bars, or braces in general, add localized stiffness to the top. Tone bars generally add to longitudinal stiffness without having much affect on lateral stiffness, and they make it possible to make the top lighter than an equally stiff top made without tone bars. Those things effect the vibrational modes of the top, perhaps changing the resonant frequency or shape of the modes, perhaps a little of both.
    My impression is; Saga, or whomever it is making "the Loar" mandolins decided to save the money it takes to keep the kind of skill around that is needed to install tone bars and instead design their requisite stiffness into the top itself. Surely, there is a difference in the sound done that way as opposed to the more traditional 'tone bar' construction, whether one sound is better than the other is subjective, as sound always is.
    As for shaving tone bars in existing mandolins, if the f-holes were big enough, I have no doubt that people would be shaving away, much like some do in Martin guitars, and if the mandolin was minimally constructed to start with, that might not be a good thing.

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    Default Re: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    yes, it's true. You could shave the tone bars out of a loar and make it sound as good as a "the loar".
    lmao!

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    Default Re: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    From an old thread with a response by Paul Hostetter:

    Re: Looking for an F style anyone know about the Loar LM 700 VS?
    Originally Posted by BLUERIDGEBORN
    I'm not so concerned about having it for Christmas as I am about having it set up properly.
    Good thinking.


    Why no tone bars? makes me wonder what they did to the top to achieve stability sans tone bars.
    The guy who runs the shop in Shanghai is a seasoned violinmaker who kept building copies of Gibsons with the tone bars and wondered to himself "Why do these need to be there?" He evidently felt they were an unnecessary production step and didn't really help the tone. With his background in top carving (these are hand-carved) he decided to try one graduated his way, to see how it worked. He finally greenlighted it himself, sent it over, the Music Link guys showed it to me, and I loved it right off. So I took it home for further examination and research, and it never went back. I won't say it's a better sound than the 600, but it's different, a bit looser and warmer out the gate, and I liked it a lot. Other folks seem to concur, which is why it's an actual model now.

    Tone bars, in theory, aren't braces. They can be, but they theoretically serve a different purpose—certainly so if based on the concept of a bass bar in a violin—in carved mandolins. There are many opinions on this topic, and I don't want to wade into that very far.

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    In The Van Ben Milne's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    My uncle recently retrofitted tonebars to a collegues's pacrim mandolin. How (not to mention why bother) he managed to get such a fit them and attach them through the F holes mystifies both my Dad and myself. All reports from the folk at the local mandolin orchestra is that the tonebars made a vast improvement. Nobody could really believe how much more life the laminated object had. Of course it still couldn't hold its own against a handcarved mandolin, but the difference in before and after tonebars was substantial.
    Hereby & forthwith, any instrument with an odd number of strings shall be considered broken. With regard to mix levels, usually the best approach is treating the mandolin the same as a cowbell.

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    Default Re: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    Cole guitars in Australia are using a computer router to carve guitar tops with braces - sort of a complicated process but a way to get tone and cost online.
    Craig

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    Default Re: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    Ben,

    Fascinating. I wonder if the laminated top was "bad" enough that the tone bars helped because of that. The logical question would be, "If you took the LM 700 top and put tone bars on it, what would happen?" If the LM 700 is designed and carved to sound it's best without tone bars, is that good enough? Apart from just cost savings, I wonder if the TML folk were actually trying to make a better mandolin? I believe mandolins can be made to sound better more consistently. I personally don't know how, but I believe in innovation. Is the lack of tone bars on purpose to give an interesting and unique tone? Or just a ploy to save money? The 700's have a lifetime warranty, and Paul H. has had his more than four years with no issue.

    This is so interesting.


    dave

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    Default Re: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    I understand that Mando Voodoo procedure involves some tone bar shaving, and sanding..
    It does, and in almost all cases it voids the manufacturers warranty.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Mandolins with no tone bars / bracing?

    It has nothing whatever to do with cost savings. Carving a top with or without tone bars makes no appreciable difference in how much it costs to build the instrument. And it has nothing to do with durability, either.

    The story I've been told was that the head guy in the workshop that makes those instruments is a violin maker by training. He wondered why you couldn't use a violin-style carving approach on a mandolin and built a prototype accordingly. The folks at Music Link thought it was a great sounding mandolin so they used that approach in two of the models and have been successful with them.

    There are many ways to carve an arched top, tone bars, no tone bars, X bracing at various angles, etc. All of them make small differences in the sound and response which is why every mandolin doesn't sound alike. I think anything that's been working in violins for several hundred years probably has at least the potential to be a pretty decent idea.

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