Jam tips

[mugbucket]

Attended my first bluegrass jam last night at Jahnke Rd Baptist Church here in Richmond VA (http://www.vabluegrass.com/?page_id=5) and had a real good time. It was something I'd been putting off for awhile, but was cajoled into it by a friend whose teenage son enjoyed playing there. I'll admit I was feeling a fair amount of trepidation when I arrived as there were lot of talented folks playing at a high level. We found a room where the tempo was slowed down a bit and just jumped right in. As I was the only mando player in the room, I was constantly looking at the guitar players fretting hands for the chords. My trouble is when they put the capo's on! Any tips?

Thanks!

Ski

[pickloser]

It may help to quit thinking in terms of G, C, D, and Em, etc., altogether, when you look at the guitarist. Think of it instead as the guitar showing you the "pattern" of chords. G, C, D, Em becomes one, four, five, and six. I use these "numbers" in my head when I'm at a jam and see nothing but capos and G chords. See G, think one, and play the I chord of whatever the key is. See D, play the V chord. Works for me; hope it does for you.

[AlanN]

Pickloser has it.

The I, IV, V scheme may seem a bit esoteric, but it really is simple once you get it, and it SO frees up the thought process when playing. I mean, who wants to think when you're picking a hot number? lol. It becomes 2nd nature.

Now, there are those who resist it (Lord knows why). I hit a jam where I *try* to call out the numbers, many of the pickers just stare blankly and keep doing their thing <sigh>.

[mugbucket]

Thanks fellas. Now after I look up esoteric, I guess I need to figure that Roman numeral thing out!

Ski

[pickloser]

I ii iii IV V vi vii◦ I
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

C D E F G A B C
G A B C D E F# G
D E F# G A B C# D
A B C# D E F# G# A
E F# G# A B C# D# E
B C# D# E F# G# A# B
F G A Bb C D E F
Bb C D Eb F G A Bb

Some people use Arabic numerals; some use Roman. Upper case Roman means it’s a major chord; lower case means minor chord.

To make each chord, start on the note for the chord you want, and skip one to get the next note, and then skip another to get the last note. In other words, use the first, third, and fifth note in the scale, starting on the note for the chord you want.

I chord = 1 and 3 and 5; IV chord = 4, 6, 8; V chord = 5, 7, 2. To make a ii chord in the key of C, for example, use D (C’s 2 note), F (C’s 4 note) and A (C’s 6 note). D minor is C’s ii/2 chord. F# minor is E’s ii/2 chord, and it consists of the 2, 4, and 6 notes of E, which are F#, A, and C#. Another example—the vi chord in the key of F—start on F’s 6 note (D), add the 8/1 note (F) and the 3 note (A), which gives you a D minor chord, also known as F’s vi chord.

Thinking of things this way takes a little time up front, but I think it allows one to “see” how it all fits together, especially on a mandolin. Very quickly, you will cease thinking in these terms altogether. You’ll just think one chord, four chord, five chord, six chord, etc. All you need to know is where the one note is on the mandolin, and you will know where the others are, since our instrument is logical and the logic repeats.

(I can't get my table to line up, but I think you will get the picture.)

[mugbucket]

PickL,

Wow.

What you said makes sense - but it may take my brain awhile to rewire itself to think in these terms. Being self taught, I've had a lousy instructor!

Thanks again,

Ski

[mandroid]

Yea , count up .. what fret they put the capo on, if they are making G chord shapes , go up the chromatic scale from G.
G, G#, A, Bb, B, C, C#, D , etc. thats the Key they are really using..

stuff tends to resolve to the tonic, the I, at the end of the verse, so if you find that note, that is the Key,

[fatt-dad]

Hey Ski! Next time come upstairs where the old-time folks are playing. Say, "hi!" I am the tall guy playing the Flatiron pancake (well that's what I usually bring). I was there last night. Love that jam! Next Tuesday, the old-time folks will be at Rockwood Park playing music at the nature center.

f-d

[mugbucket]

Mandroid - that's a great signature line, and it truly applies on this subject for me!

fatt-dad - will do. As a matter of fact, I was right across the hall from you.

Ski

[JeffD]

Very quickly, you will cease thinking in these terms altogether. You’ll just think one chord, four chord, five chord, six chord, etc. All you need to know is where the one note is on the mandolin, and you will know where the others are, since our instrument is logical

This one idea revolutionized my playing. In all my chords and double stops I learn 'em in closed patterns, here's the I, here's the V, here's the vi etc. It's pretty straight forward and comes quickly.

I learned the idea from a superb tenor banjo player, and it kind of reinvented the whole fret board in my mind.

[Noteplayer]

Mugbucket,

I haven't been to the Jahke Rd jam yet but are there any other jams in Richmond, say, on the north side?

Bob

[carlnut]

Hey Mugbucket, this may help you. To figure out the 1, 4 and 5 chords quickly here is what to do. If the song is in G for example, on your left hand your thumb is G. then your ring finger is C and your pinkie is D which is the turnaround chord in many songs. If the song is in C for example your thumb is C, ring finger is F and pinkie is G. Also, Learn to pick in the box if you want melody breaks and then it don't matter what key the song is in. I don't know how to explain picking in the box, but find someone to show you and you will be happy you learned it. It is very useful knowledge. Good luck.

[fatt-dad]

Re: Other jams. Send Jim Mahone an email and he'll put you on the email list that he maintains. Here's his email:

jim.mahone AT comcast.net

This Saturday there is an Open Band Experience contra dance, where folks bring their instruments and play for the dance. If you want to do this go at 6:00 pm to the Ginter Recreation Center and they'll have a practice to prepare for the dance at 8:00. More information at: www.tadamsva.org

There is the Cary Street Cafe jam, which is Sunday at 2:00. Well attended mostly old-time jam.

f-d

[Noteplayer]

Thanks, fatt-dad...appreciate the imput.

[Flyfisher]

Also, Learn to pick in the box if you want melody breaks and then it don't matter what key the song is in. I don't know how to explain picking in the box, but find someone to show you and you will be happy you learned it. It is very useful knowledge. Good luck.

Somebody want to take a stab at explaining picking in the box. For those of us that have chords and simple meloies down but are looking for that next step.

[D C Blood]

I have used the number system for many years and I learned it almost as stated earlier in this thread except for one difference. Way I learned, (and it was from a Nashville pro), G/1, A/2. B/3, C/4, D/5, E/6, F/7...it makes a whole lot more sense for the Fchord in the key of G to be "7" rather than 7b .Likewise in key of A, G is 7, C = Bb is 7, in D, C is 7. That has worked for me for almost fifty years now...

[blmjr]

pickloser, THANK you so much for that post. That has always been a mystery to me. Your explanation is very clear.

So how do you put that into practice? (or how would I?) Memorize that chart? Add the numbers to my tab prints outs?

How did you learn?

Thanks again, that's just what I needed.

[Chip Booth]

Start by memorizing the basic I-IV-V chords in a common key or two such and G, C or D. As you learn and play your own songs think of them numerically as well as by the chords. Pretty soon the chords and numbers will start to associate themelves.

On the mandolin find moveable (not open) chords for I IV and V that are close together. Play a song using those three chord forms. Now slide it a few frets higher and play it in a different key. You may not even know the names of the new chords you are playing until you think about it , but the relationships of I IV and V are the same. Here is a chart with three chord shapes you can use:



This chart is in the key of A. Slide it two frets higher and you playing in B! One more and you are in C.

Now go visit the theory forum!

[blmjr]

Hey Chip,

Wow - thanks so much for that! That is so nice for you to help out a beginner with such a clear explanation.

I shouldn't be surprised, everyone here at the Café is so helpful. I think I picked the right instrument to play since so many people who play are generous and love what they do.

[Chip Booth]

No problem, you will find a community of helpful people and great information here. My development on the mandolin moved along at light speed as a result of joining the Cafe compared to the time it would have taken me to learn everything for myself. Also, don't forget to use the search function, many topics you are likley to be interested in have already been discussed at great length.

[pickloser]

Hi BLMJr. Chip is a better explainer than me, so I won't try and improve on that. "Where things are" on the mando didn't really click for me until I worked thru double stops based on 1 3 and 5 chord tones. I wrote up what I figured out. It's posted in a couple places already, so I won't put it here too, but you can see the write up in post 3 of this linked thread: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...606#post752606

Like you, I have been helped so much here on the Cafe. I'm indebted to Scott and his lieutenants.
Laura

[blmjr]

PickL,

I've heard lots of people say "I play this one in C, 1, 4, 5" and I never knew what they were saying.

I don't know *exactly* what that means yet, but know that I very soon might puts a big smile on my face.

Thanks!

[D C Blood]

blmjr...In C, l-4-5= C,F,G
in G...1,4,5 = G,C,D
in A...1,4,5 = A,D,E
in D...1,4,5 = D,G,A

Now where this starts getting complicated for the beginner is when the guitar and banjo put their capos on, meaning G, capoed second fret = A, meaning that even though the guitar is playing G,C, and D chord positions, he's actually playing in the key of A, and sounding A, D, and E chords...But it's still "1,4,5"...

[mandroid]

Why? there are so many 1,4,5 songs .. is because in those 3 chords you have every note in the scale
in one of the 3 notes in the chord.

Economical Eh?

Example: Ceg, Fac, Gbd ... CdeFGab

[journeybear]

Once you get the hang of how chord progressions go, especially common ones like the 1-4-5, you won"t get thrown so much by capos. If someone has a capo on the second fret and is playing chord forms in the key of G, you"ll know the song is in A and the 1-4-5 chords will be A, D, and E. After you've played with other people enough, you'll be able to pick up on chord changes by ear rather than have to read chords. And until you reach that point, you may find you'll get better at looking at someone playing a D chord with a 2nd fret capo and thinking "E." It's like anything - the more you do it the better you get at it.