Gibson Acoustic Engineers

[Bernie Daniel]

I have a question about the time periods (dates) for the various Gibson Acoustic Engineers who signed the master model mandolins -- I guess we all know the first one was Lloyd Loar (1922 - 1924?) but who came next?

I'm asking this generic question to cover as many years as possible and it would be great to have a complete list. Perhaps it has already been assembled?

But for the moment I would be most content and grateful if anyone could supply the switch over dates between Charlie Derrington to Danny Roberts to Dave Harvey?

[Big Joe]

After Loar they were not signed again until several decades later. Charlie signed them from about 2000 until the end of 2004 at which time Danny signed them. Danny was transferred out of OAI at the end of 2005 and Casey Sullivan signed a few. Then around 2007 Dave began signing them. I don't believe there any produced from late 2005 until very late 2007 or 2008. Orders were beginning to slow and production was much slower without Charlie or Danny in the department. Casey left Gibson in 2006 and with none of us left in OAI they did not have many to work in that area. Dave transferred to OAI in 2007 mid year but it took a bit of time before they could begin production on the MM's, and there were several of the Skaggs in stock that were made before, though some were not labeled until later. MM production has been very slow and only a few made since Danny left.

[Bernie Daniel]

Great answer Joe -- Thanks!

I recently acquired a 2006 Sam Bush model so I assume perhaps Mr. Sullivan might have signed it then -- had they been doing that.

But it looks like mine falls into the "no-signer' zone then? It has no "acoustic engineer label" just the model label under that bass side f-hole. I've heard that most Bush models do not have two labels -- kind of odd since the Bush is, in theory at least a step up from the Fern in the pecking order.

[mandroid]

Just asking .. [Joe? etc.] thinking acoustic engineer rather is specific..

Those Guys did the Acoustic Engineering MSci degree.?

or were they final QC, Signing labels as the overall mandolin production Supervisors ?

Did Lloyd have a Masters Degree in Acoustic engineering, and from what University?

[John Gass]

I wish I have a Joe Vest sign DMM lol

[f5loar]

After Loar left the next person to sign a Master Model label was in 1970 by then President Stanley E. Rendell. Then came dozens of others to sign before Charlie D signed them.

[Benski]

I once owned a 1973 F5 and it was signed by Rendell. My May 23, 2008 Goldrush proudly sports Dave Harvey's signature (tho I prefer to think of it as "autographed" as opposed to "signed")

[f5loar]

And the late 80's had those Steve Carlson and Bruce Weber signatures on the F5Ls. There were others in the 80's too. Can anyone make up a list of all of those that did sign the Master Model F5s after Loar left? Arron Cowels signed them late 70's.
Did Jim Triggs ever sign them in the 80's?

[Big Joe]

I have never seen a list of who may have signed them. The "acoustic engineer" label was used as a replication of the labels used by Loar in the 20's. I don't know that anyone had a degree in engineering or any similar degree. The concept is that the person who signed them was supposed to be the one person who knew if they were built correctly and the tone was correct and if not, what to do to make it right or scrap it. I doubt that was always the case. Some of the instruments signed from the 70's until??? had several questionable issues ranging from tone to construction quality. Often these issues do not show up for a number of years and by that time the "acoustic engineer" of the day has long since gone.

Charlie Derrington was not a certified engineer with a degree in engineering from college. His education was actually in music but he certainly had earned more than an equivalent to a doctorate in the design, function, and tone of the "Loar" style mandolin. His knowledge of instrument repair was second to none and his understanding of details of finish was beyond any I've seen in anyone else. He was extremely meticulous in the work he did and was very, very detail oriented. Once on a task (which was sometimes the problem) he was so focused you could not distract him from what he was doing. I think he would be far more qualified than anyone I have met in my years in the business to be considered competent to sign the MM labels. That certainly does not take anything away from the other great luthiers that I've met or worked with over the years, just that in those particular areas Charlie was the most knowledgeable I've seen. It was not just his job, it was his personal passion and nothing was more fascinating to him than the Loar mandolin and its recreation. In every manner he worked until he felt he had a complete understanding of the instrument and what made it do what it did. That is really how he was able to replicate the tone in so many of his mandolin. He was fussy about all the same things he felt Loar was and that went from glue to wood selection to graduations to the very finish itself. Any alteration in any of those areas would give a different end result and he was not going to allow that in his MM or DMM production.

During our tenure at the big G and OAI the labels on the MM and DMM were signed by Charlie while he was in OAI. They had to go through QC and all other inspections, including passing the tone tests and playability tests before Charlie checked them over. They were usually checked all through the process by several including Charlie, but his signature did not go on them until he felt it accomplished the goals he set. He was the last one to check it out before the label was applied. By the time the label was put in the mandolin had gone through several very qualified and competent people for approval and finally to Danny Roberts and then Charlie. Most of the guys in the mandolin department at that time could play the mandolin and a good number were quite accomplished players. They knew what a good mandolin should look like, sound like, and play like.

Danny signed them after Charlie left. Needless to say, he is more than qualified to inspect and sign the label on the mandolins. He knew from working with Charlie for a good number of years exactly what he wanted to see accomplished and what the end result must be. He has been one of the top mandolin players in the country for many years and was, unfortunately, largely unknown to the public at large. His work in the last decade with Dolly and the Grascals has finally brought him the credit he deserves as a player but his skill is incredible. He is extremely fussy about how his mandolins sound and play and carried on the work of Charlie while he was in OAI.

Casey is a great player, but not interested in playing for a living. He worked with Charlie and Danny for a number of years. His brother, Eric, is an incredible musician as well, and his father is a great mandolin player. Casey was one of only two people who did finish work on the MM's and DMM's except Charlie. He was incredible at what he did. He was not only doing the finish, but also the final assembly after Danny was out of OAI. He signed the labels because no one else in the department was qualified.

During the time Danny was signing the labels, and during the time Casey was the mandolins were still inspected by several of us who had been an integral part of OAI but had been transferred to a different division. Our offices were just where they had been while we were in the OAI division, and the same guys were checking them out and giving input on them during that period. Until Charlie was killed, I don't think there was an MM or DMM that he had not checked out and played. The same with Danny. He also was right there and checking them out and still giving advice and help as he could. We were just assigned different responsibilities but were physically in the same place.

After Casey left, the MM and DMM production was near extinct. Several of the Ricky Scaggs DMM's had already been built and signed. Several more were complete by not labeled. They got signed when there were ready to ship. A couple years later Dave Harvey began signing the labels and he became supervisor of mandolin production. Dave is probably the best overall mandolin player I've heard. He is incredible in so many styles and genres. His knowledge of the mandolin is quite extensive and he had a long history of repair. He worked with us before Gibson and then for five or six years in repair for me at Gibson before transferring to the OAI division.

Dave is certainly capable of making a great mandolin and knows how they should sound and play. He can do everything from incredible bluegrass to Jethro Burns style to Monroe style to jazz or rock and make them all sound unbelievable. He certainly has a different set of criteria from what Charlie did, and that is not bad, just different. He is certainly more than capable and qualified to sign the labels and if or when they resume production of mandolins he certainly has the knowledge to direct the production in the right direction.

This has been along answer but hopefully give some insight into the mandolins. Each generation of mandolins brings some changes. Even during Loar's time with Gibson there were subtle changes over time. The same with any of the "acoustic engineers". One of the highlights of my life was to spend so many years with Charlie. It as always an education, and you always knew you were at the feet of a master who was teaching and mentoring all the time. Those years and the incredible number of incredible instruments that passed through our hands gave us an education you could not get in a college or university. If you were going to be next to Charlie for long, the mandolin and lutherie was either going to be your passion or you would have to go elsewhere. He was very open with his knowledge and loved to share with any who would listen, but if you were going to be with him for long you better be as passionate as he was about them. I am truly thankful to have spent those years, not only with Charlie, but with all the others that I got to spend time with. That includes Danny Roberts, Dave Harvey, Tim Shaw, Dave Anderson, Shane Thearon, Josh Vest, Sim Dailey, Casey Sullivan and his brother Eric. The list could go on for some time, but the talent and intelligence of this group was amazing. Some of the most talented people on the planet. Ok, I've gone on for too long. Thank you Charlie, and all, for allowing me to be a part of the gang!

[AlanN]

Didn't Dave work at The Violin Shop for a while? I think I had a lesson with him there in the mid-90's.

[Bernie Daniel]

Incredible bit of priceless history there Joe thanks a million for that incredible insight. I almost feel like I was there now!!! I love the tone and sound of Gibson mandolins -- of course there are many other fine mandolins and mandolin makers and I respect them too.

But none of these other great makers can offer you that chance to hold over a century of rich history and tradition in your hands as you play. That is the personal priceless part for me -- thanks for feeding my habit!

[Big Joe]

Hey Alan...Yes...David did work for the Violin Shop for a period of time. He was with us at National Guitar Repair, and then he went to the Violin Shop until we started Gibson Repair and Restoration a few years later.

[Eric Hanson]

Thanks you so much Joe for taking the time and effort to share this information with us.
All that history gives many of reasons to consider one day owning a Gibson.
Your knowledge is quite valuable to those of us who have come in a little later in the game.
With great respect.

[mandroid]

Thanks for the historical Clarification. I tend to think of Acoustic Engineering in terms of Architecture,
the folks that work on making a room sound good to everyone sitting in the place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_engineering
places like this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avery_Fisher_Hall

[carleshicks]

Big Joe. Thanks for that history of the modern era Gibson signatures . I am going to add that to the Master Model Registry for future reference if you don't mind.

[bobbyburns]

Since Gibson had all of these great players, who obviously knew a good mandolin when they were handed one, why on earth did they not appreciate these guys enough to give them a lifetime career in the mandolin shop? Why would they not do whatever it took to keep all these guys? I think it really shows where the management heads are. In 10 years will we all be wondering why Gibson is out of the mandolin business?

[Bernie Daniel]

Since Gibson had all of these great players, who obviously knew a good mandolin when they were handed one, why on earth did they not appreciate these guys enough to give them a lifetime career in the mandolin shop? Why would they not do whatever it took to keep all these guys? I think it really shows where the management heads are. In 10 years will we all be wondering why Gibson is out of the mandolin business?

I doubt Gibson will be out the the mandolin business

This latest flood could do them in of course.

But actually a number of those people Joe mentioned still are with Gibson! Davey Harvey and Danny Roberts for example.

Charlie Derrington was sadly killed on the roads by an intoxicated illegal "citizen", Gibson had no control over that.

Some of the others left voluntarily I think -- guys like Daley and Triggs make their own line of mandolins now and so forth

As well do we know what these persons wanted to do? Maybe some did not want a lifetime job at the Gibson mandolin factory?

I agree in general with your point about Gibson management -- then again they have survived as a big dog for over 100 years. In spite of management?

[bobbyburns]

Just because someone buys an old established company, do they somehow possess 100+ years of instrument building experience and knowledge? My point is, with all these mandolin guys that the current Gibson management has/had access too, if Gibson had truly been interested in mandolins, they would have made it lucrative enough that these guys would not have left on their own to start their own businesses. And yet, we still worship the Gibson company. I have tremendous respect for all of these guys who have worked for Gibson making mandolins. It is their interest in learning how the old ones were made that put the modern Gibson folks back in the mando business. However, the Gibson company that I idolize went under many years ago.

[Bernie Daniel]

.... I have tremendous respect for all of these guys who have worked for Gibson making mandolins. It is their interest in learning how the old ones were made that put the modern Gibson folks back in the mando business. However, the Gibson company that I idolize went under many years ago.

Well everyone has their own views of course.

I toured the Gibson factory in Kalamazoo in the mid-1970's and it was a pretty neat place but the "tour" they povided was anemic -- I did not get to see much compared to the shop visit I got at Martin in PA a few days later.

The insturments Gibson was making when I visited were, overall at least, as poor as those or any era. Oddy enough though, even then, some good ones came out the door -- I have 1973 J-50 that will stand right in there with most D-18's of that period.

But generally, I tend to agree with you about the Gibson company per se -- it's just another board of directors with a CEO to me.


Also, I think you are certainly correct about guys who worked so hard to recapture the build and the soul of the Loar F-5's. These were remarkable individuals.

[f5loar]

Gibson has been letting good people go for a long long time. The biggest mistake they made was firing Lloyd Loar in late 1924.
It's been downhill ever since! The 2nd biggest mistake was in 1951 when they didn't repair Bill Monroe's F5 to his satisfaction.
They should have endorsed Bill Monroe before then as he was selling a bunch of mandolins for those folks in Kalamazoo.
Way more then the one they did endorse, Dave Apollon. And I don't think Homer & Jethro sold a bunch of Gibsons either.

[evanreilly]

Just musing a bit, but I suspect that Lloyd Loar saw the handwriting on the wall for his Master Model line of instruments at Gibson.
I suspect he may have been dreaming of electric instruments even back then, and they did not fit in with Gibson's production schemes then.
It would be a long time before there was much interest in the successors to his crowning achievements, the style 5 instruments, especially the mandolin. Maybe the only places they would show up in numbers were the mandolin orkys, errr... orchestras. Until much later......

[Bernie Daniel]

Just musing a bit, but I suspect that Lloyd Loar saw the handwriting on the wall for his Master Model line of instruments at Gibson.
I suspect he may have been dreaming of electric instruments even back then, and they did not fit in with Gibson's production schemes then.
It would be a long time before there was much interest in the successors to his crowning achievements, the style 5 instruments, especially the mandolin. Maybe the only places they would show up in numbers were the mandolin orkys, errr... orchestras. Until much later......

Interesting comments -- but you know they must have been slow learners because didn't they also put Les Paul and his ideas off for years before they finally saw the commercial value in his electric guitar -- and that instrument totally changed (saved?) the company!

[Tom Mullen]

That type of corporate thinking is very similar to the statement by an IBM corporate exec in the early 70's saying something to the effect of "We do not see any reason for an everyday person to be using a computer"

[hank]

Fascinating thread Bernie. Joe thanks for sharing your window into OAI. Casey if your reading this thank you for getting it right on FGR 60413020.

[woodwizard]

Fascinating thread Bernie. Joe thanks for sharing your window into OAI. Casey if your reading this thank you for getting it right on FGR 60413020.

My Casey signed 61020020 Goldrush too ... it's a keeper! Got to meet his brother Eric at OAI once. A very knowlegable, friendly and nice guy to talk too. And Joe it is always so interesting to read your posts about Gibson and it's people. Thanks for sharing!