Madagascar rosewood

[Paul Hostetter]

I've been to Madagascar and I've seen first-hand what resource exploitation has done to the place (not to mention poverty and horrendous politics). I've long maintained that Madagascar rosewood, so fashionable in the lutherie world, is being extracted illegally, but my lone voice hasn't been able to do much.

National Geographic's current (September 2010) issue has an article on this issue. I urge folks who think all's fair in the marketplace have a good look at that article. Many of the damning images and brief captions can be viewed here: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...re-photography

This map of the current state of things isn't in the slideshow at the Geo site:



It was all forest once. It's mostly burned out bare dirt eroding into the Indian Ocean now. Commercial trade in Madagascar rosewood has been built entirely on lies. There's almost none left. Please think about it.

[brunello97]

Thanks, Paul, for the information and the sincerity behind it. While I don't build instruments, I certainly spec a lot of wood myself and teach construction practice to young architects. There is so much disinformation abound regarding wood sourcing, harvesting methods, economics, and local cultural practices. I try to keep myself informed and to pass along relevant material. It can be daunting (as well as depressing.)

I certainly have my share of pre-1925 rosewood mandolins, though whether the source is from Madagascar, Brazil or elsewhere I don't know. I can understand anyone's attraction to the material, albeit before reading the NG article (or probably numerous others.) What alternatives would you recommend to folks looking for such intensity of beauty without such horrific consequences?

Mick

[Paul Hostetter]

Tough to say where to find honest wood. Brazilian has been CITE'd for years and it's still hitting the market soaking wet. I know folks who've been lucky enough to find stashes of pre-ban rosewood in the lofts of old shops that ever got around to using it. I personally think there are other woods that are not in trouble and are sufficiently attractive as tonewoods that I'm willing to look for them instead.

The only Brazilian lookalike that I know of that makes good guitars and is allegedly not in trouble is ziricote. But given the flimflam on the truly endangered ones, like Madagascar, I'm not sure who to believe. In the case of Madagascar, a lot of the trouble stems from the fact that they have no government worthy of the name. Any allegedly "public official" is for sale. If they're even seen.

[brunello97]

...... I personally think there are other woods that are not in trouble and are sufficiently attractive as tonewoods that I'm willing to look for them instead.

That's actually what I was referring to in looking for recommendations.....

Mick

[Paul Hostetter]

Lookalikes? I don't think there are many. And I don't think there are many, if any, tropical rosewoods of any sort that have much of a future. Gorgeous dark woods? Hmm, also problematic. I love padauk, which is better than most rosewoods from a tonal perspective, and has a look that's quite close as well, but I can't believe it has much of a future. I love walnut, which is slightly analogous to Indian, but not really. My heart is what's local and absolutely not in trouble: maple, walnut, bay laurel, oak (barely acknowledged, except by Martin and our own Hans), osage orange, American sycamore, black/yellow locust, etc.

Humanity latched onto dark-colored tropical hardwoods a long time ago—even as dissimilar as mahogany and rosewood—and has pretty much used up the entire supply. Look at tropical forest resources: Brazil, Indonesia, Africa, Sri Lanka - they're down to stems and seeds, and going real fast. I applaud replanting efforts, but they're a long way from meeting market needs.

Let's be frank: the top is most of the sound of a guitar. There are nuanced differences between different side and back woods, but they don't make or break guitars. While we wait another 500 years for some good D. nigra to arrive again in the mills, there are other woods that will fill the bill very nicely.

[John Soper]

And tonewood for instruments accounts for only a smidgen of the demand for these timbers, yet we must be mindful of our quest for the beauty in the eye of the (be)holder... How many Sitkas left the Northwest for chopsticks in Japan and other relatively frivolous uses? Thank you, Paul, for bringing the plight of Madagascar rosewood to our attention. Beyond our instruments, we need to be aware of the global impact of our lives, our use of non-sustainable products and consumption of food, clothing, packaging, and energy that is not produced using responsible methods.

[BradKlein]

There's no way to avoid these issues if you love musical instruments, and have any kind of interest in the natural world, particularly endangered plants, animals, and ecosystems. It stretches credulity to believe that all, or most of the guitar makers who are offering new Brazilian rosewood instruments, have precious stashes of pre CITES lumber, that never seem to run out. I have also had the chance to travel to Madagascar, meet the people, and witness the grinding poverty and political disaster there.

There is much to be said for domestic woods, and luckily, mandolins are often made with renewable maple and spruce.

[Gail Hester]

I frequent a place in Seattle called Crosscut Hardwoods usually to marvel at the exotic woods and to buy small pieces of ebony that I need for bridges and such. I found a large freshly cut supply of Macassar Ebony and picked out a small board, expensive but fairly priced. I went back a couple weeks later to buy a little more and it was all gone. I was told it all sold for counter tops and floors in a big fancy house. Now I'm talking 2"X6" by 8-16' boards, over a hundred of these large boards, incredible stuff.

While I appreciated Paul's post, I'm afraid that addressing this issue and creating awareness in the luthiery community alone is like spitting into the ocean in terms of the overall problem.

[Paul Hostetter]

Gail - Small point, just in case: Macassar is in Indonesia, not Madagascar.

With regards to the rosewood and other hardwoods of Madagascar, much is being sent to China, the rest is going to wood dealers who sell to the lutherie (not luthiery) community. We are talking about so little remaining timber that it'll all be gone in a few years, at current cutting rates. (Most of the Brazilian rosewood on the planet has long been in warehouses in Spain, except for the chunk they moved to China.) Is it OK to think that it's a goner, so why even worry about it now?

[Gail Hester]

Gail - Small point, just in case: Macassar is in Indonesia, not Madagascar.

Of course but my point was to point out the huge waste of exotic tone wood as part of the big picture compared to what is used in luthery. I didn't realize the discussion was limited to Madagascar.

[Michael Lewis]

Walnut!!!! Maple!!! Locust!!!

[sprucetop1]

A lot of my building has been done using very old mahogany from discarded or broken down Victorian furniture. It's often good material in terms of colour but equally can be sub-optimal in terms of grain direction and presence of small knots, pinholes, worm, staining etc., ..........but seems to make worthwhile instruments. I don't think there's any ethical problem in doing this....but if anyone disagrees, I'd appreciate hearing your opinion.

[Paul Hostetter]

Of course but my point was to point out the huge waste of exotic tone wood as part of the big picture compared to what is used in luthery.

That's for sure. And it's true too that there is a terrific amount of waste, which is illustrated powerfully in that NG article, in just the forest, before the wood ever gets to a buyer or a mill. I'm a bit uncomfortable with the notion that we craftspeople are as insignificant in the world of exotic tropical timber consumption as we probably are in the overall scheme of things with regard to Sitka spruce, but I have no real data. The results are not all in for me. I'm certainly not interested in blaming the folks at the near end of the line for the rare timber situation, but rather in provoking some thought in light of fresh and rather compelling information.

I didn't realize the discussion was limited to Madagascar.

It needn't be as far as I'm concerned. I started it to talk about Madagascar rosewood, but it's easier to talk about alternatives than to tackle the gnarly ethics of the rare wood market head on. Lots of threads already on alternative woods.

[grassrootphilosopher]

While it is true that woods are harvested to death it is equally true that exotic woods are mostly used for pretty nonsensical things. In Germany the authorities mostly confiscate CITES material in products such as clotheshangers etc. that are massproduced. The instrument world (looking at individual luthiers) are such a small crowd that the amount of wood harvested for these purposes is hardly noticable (like it would with Elephant Ivory for piano keys or guitar nuts and bridges etc.)

Should we protect our environment? Most certainly. Is the Madagascar situation a general problem? While we must refrain from talking about it due to forum guidelines, situations in such countries make a pretty obvious statement.

[Dagger Gordon]

Paul, I don't want to distract this discussion from Madagascar rosewood, but since mahogany has been mentioned, I'd be interested to hear your views on the current use of mahogany.

Dagger

[swampstomper]

Humanity has a very sad record of over-exploitation of resources, especially forests, not leaving even a token amount. An example close to home is northern Pennsylvania -- the entire tier of counties was clearcut for hemlock for tanneries between about 1880 and 1930. There is some pretty rough country there but they build railroads and skid road and logged the whole thing. The lumber towns and railroads are long-abandoned, the forest has regrown but never the magnificant old-growth hemlocks. Couldn't "they" (we) have left a few square miles out of the thousands?

[Ed Goist]

Humanity has a very sad record of over-exploitation of resources, especially forests, not leaving even a token amount. An example close to home is northern Pennsylvania -- the entire tier of counties was clearcut for hemlock for tanneries between about 1880 and 1930. There is some pretty rough country there but they build railroads and skid road and logged the whole thing. The lumber towns and railroads are long-abandoned, the forest has regrown but never the magnificant old-growth hemlocks. Couldn't "they" (we) have left a few square miles out of the thousands?

Here, Here! One thing I find oddly consoling is the fact that nature will surely rebound, even those old-growth hemlocks, after the time of man.

[tree]

Here, Here! One thing I find oddly consoling is the fact that nature will surely rebound, even those old-growth hemlocks, after the time of man.

I'm not consoled by that, and I doubt the hemlocks are either. The hemlock wooly adelgid appears to have the upper hand with Tsuga canadensis in the Eastern US. . . and that's only the latest tree species to suffer at the hands (uh, mouthparts) of another exotic insect pest. The recent list of 6-legged offenders includes the Asian longhorned beetle, the Emerald ash borer, and the Redbay ambrosia beetle.

We live in a global economy, and the world population is increasing rapidly. There are unintended consequences galore. When you look at it, it is hard to be optimistic about how we ever come to terms with our limited resources - our record isn't encouraging. But we'll either come to terms with it, or we'll go the way of the dinosaur, and cockroaches will have the last laugh. And yet I have hope that we'll eventually figure out something that works . . . utilizing local species like maple and spruce (or weed trees like Bradford pear ) for stringed instruments is as good a way as any to try to help out.

[Paul Hostetter]

Paul, I don't want to distract this discussion from Madagascar rosewood, but since mahogany has been mentioned, I'd be interested to hear your views on the current use of mahogany.

It's muddy. Everyone knows that the mahogany sources in the Americas are down to about 30% of what they once were, and that countries like Mexico, Peru and Brazil have good-looking laws on the books, but everyone also knows those laws are being circumvented handily, resulting in lots of harvested timber with a complete but utterly fraudulent paper trail. There just aren't enough people committed to backing up the laws, so market demand still rules instead.



I wish there was 30% of the Madagascar forest left. The French took more than that before they abandoned ship decades ago.

And there's the issue of the Swietenia species in the Americas, and then there are all the other mahoganoid trees from elsewhere on the planet mixed in. Maybe with global warming, the North Slope of Alaska will sprout a nice big mahogany forest.

[Rick Turner]

Costa Rica leads the Americas in hardwood plantations. They're growing mahoganies, teak, purpleheard, goncalo alves, and other species there. Some of these trees grow best in polyculture environments...like the original forests...and the arborists are figuring that out. The plantation mahogany that I've used and resawn is not as good as old growth, but it's better than nothing which is what our kids will have if we don't get this together. BTW, much Indian rosewood is plantation grown and used as rows of shade trees on tea plantations.

[Paul Hostetter]

There is indeed one guilt-free Dalbergia, and by most measures it's a hit. Thanks for pointing that out.

[fscotte]

We live in a global economy, and the world population is increasing rapidly. There are unintended consequences galore. When you look at it, it is hard to be optimistic about how we ever come to terms with our limited resources - our record isn't encouraging. But we'll either come to terms with it, or we'll go the way of the dinosaur, and cockroaches will have the last laugh. And yet I have hope that we'll eventually figure out something that works . . .

Has anyone experimented with sides and back made of human bones?

[Tavy]

Paul, thanks for raising this issue, it's an important one, and it's so hard to find any decent information on what we should be using if we want to be "planet friendly".

Personally I have no qualms in working on vintage instruments, it's surely not hard to find 100 year mandolins using the unholy trinity of "Rosewood, ivory and tortoiseshell". Likewise, I'll happily recycle mahogany furniture (just made a mandola neck from an old bedroom dressing table that was being thrown out). New wood is a whole other issue though - as others have already posted - back sides and top are no problem as spruce and maple are easily available, but what about fingerboards? For a mandola I nearly ended up buying wenge, but when you look at where that stuff comes from, it's surely not much better than blood-diamonds, even if it is cheap and widely used. I ended up buying Indian Rosewood which is supposed to be strictly controlled for export I believe, even so I would prefer a native European species if I could get it.

[tree]

Sobering photos in this article from NPR (you have to scroll to the bottom of the page).

http://www.npr.org/blogs/pictureshow...174/madagascar

[Schlegel]

I would think fingerboards would be the easiest thing to change woods on... Wouldn't many tight-grained hardwoods work? Color would be the only reason to shy away from maple, for example, right? People expect a dark fretboard. (except Fenders)