Major Scale with Flat Seven?

[Brent Hutto]

Two-part question...

What do you call the mode that's just like major except for the flatted seventh degree?

And is this a commonly used mode in Irish music?

I've been listening to some of fiddler Martin Hayes' stuff and if I noodle around on my mandolin while he's playing that flat-seven scale seems to fit under a lot of tunes. It certainly has an "Irish" or "Celtic" kind of sound to it, to me.

[Jordan Ramsey]

Mixolydian. I do not play Irish, so I'm not sure, but a lot of those tunes that crossed over to the bluegrass realm tend to use this mode... Ol' Joe Clark, Red-Haired Boy, June Apple, etc.

[Jim Broyles]

For those who don't care to look it up, mixolydian corresponds to 5 to 5 in the major scale. Ex. : C major scale, G A B C D E F G. It's called G mix, not C mix.

[Brent Hutto]

Ah, that's why it sounded so familiar. It love those "A to G" fiddle tunes.

[mandroid]

Mix Scale.. Isn't flatting the 7th another half step a Maj 7th.. 2 half steps to the tonic, rather than one.

[Mike Bunting]

The maj 7 chord contains the natural seventh note, in this case, an F#, which is a halftone to the tonic.

[Jim Broyles]

Mix Scale.. Isn't flatting the 7th another half step a Maj 7th.. 2 half steps to the tonic, rather than one.

The confusion comes in when you call the natural 7th degree of the major scale a "major 7th" which it is, but in naming chords, the word major usually means it has the major third and is a major rather than a minor chord. The exceptions are when you want the major 7th included, therefore Xmaj7, Xmaj9, Xmaj13 - these are major chords containing the natural 7th of the major scale of the root. You can also have a minor major7, which is a minor triad with the natural seventh of the major scale of the root. In the theory of naming notes in a chord, the numbers always refer to the degrees of the MAJOR scale of the root of the chord, even if it's a MINOR chord. Add in the fact that a Minor7 chord is a minor triad with the flatted 7th degree of the major scale of the root and you can be thoroughly confused!

[Steve L]

The mixolydian scale is used quite extensively in Irish music.

[Jon Hall]

For some time I've thought that I understood the mixolodian mode but while reading this string it occured to me that I couldn't explain why a E major chord is in the progression for Red Haired Boy. The chords I've always played are A maj., D maj., G maj. and E maj. In A mixolodian the V chord should be a E minor.

I'm assuming someone combined the mode with the harmonic minor???

[Jim Broyles]

Maybe it is supposed to be Em. I'm no expert on Irish tunes, but the few I have learned to play along with my tin whistling buddy often use the v minor.

[John Soper]

I think it's E major because it's really E7- acting as the dominant to bring us back to the I (A).

[Steve L]

The reason you will often find "other" chords in tunes is because someone thought they sounded good and someone else agreed. The rules come from the sounds, not vice versa. They're more tendencies than laws.

[Pete Martin]

The reason you will often find "other" chords in tunes is because someone thought they sounded good and someone else agreed.

Very well said.

The E or E7 resolves stronger to A than Em resolves to A. Like Steve said, it is what our ear likes.

[Brent Hutto]

I discovered yesterday there's a name for the scale used on one of the cool "Balkan" tunes I've bee working on. It's called the Ahava Rabbah scale. I'm not making this up. It's the first scale I've run across with the second degree flatted.

A Bb C# D E F G A

Oh, and the song I'm playing also has a couple of F#'s just to keep me on my toes!

[Jim Broyles]

Phrygian dominant scale?

[D C Blood]

Way to go Brent (post #4)...I'm glad somebody put something on here I can understand...

[Mike Bunting]

One I learned from Radim Zenkl, but I can't remember it's name but it goes A Bb C# D E F G# A.

[Doug Hoople]

The confusion comes in when you call the natural 7th degree of the major scale a "major 7th" which it is, but in naming chords, the word major usually means it has the major third and is a major rather than a minor chord. The exceptions are when you want the major 7th included, therefore Xmaj7, Xmaj9, Xmaj13 - these are major chords containing the natural 7th of the major scale of the root. You can also have a minor major7, which is a minor triad with the natural seventh of the major scale of the root. In the theory of naming notes in a chord, the numbers always refer to the degrees of the MAJOR scale of the root of the chord, even if it's a MINOR chord. Add in the fact that a Minor7 chord is a minor triad with the flatted 7th degree of the major scale of the root and you can be thoroughly confused!

Chord names have to be short in order for them to fit neatly in small spaces on the page. They have to convey information using the least amount of characters. So quite often, the essential information about what they mean is spelled out by what's *not* written.

There are more major chords than minor chords, so a "D" chord is a major chord. The most important information about it, namely that it has a major 3rd in it, is omitted because it's simply understood.

A "Dm" chord is a minor chord, and the "m" in minor is there because it needs distinguished from its more common peer, the major chord.

From there, it's safe to assume that a "D7" chord is a major chord with a "regular" 7th, a "Dm7" is a minor chord with a "regular" 7th.

A "regular" 7th is the flatted 7th (aka dominant 7th). It's only that way because it's the most common 7th, that's all. It appears more often than other kinds.

And that, dear people, is the whole basis for decoding chord symbols. Everything else is an exception.

For example, the "maj" in Dmaj7 refers to the 7th and not the 3rd, because there's already a way of representing a major chord (namely, the use of no symbol at all). The "maj" indicates an exception to the most commonly used 7th.

If you start with the simple principles above, you're a long way toward being able to figure them all out.

[Brent Hutto]

Way to go Brent (post #4)...I'm glad somebody put something on here I can understand...

Wen it all gets too confusing and your head starts to spin the Doctor prescribes four verses of June Apple and call me in the morning.

One I learned from Radim Zenkl, but I can't remember it's name but it goes A Bb C# D E F G# A.

Yeah, there's a name for that one. When I was trying to figure out the scale on Hasapikos (the song I'm working on) I kept wanting to play the one you just spelled, instead. That G# seems more natural. Sorry, bad pun.

[GRW3]

If you are playing a flatted 7th Modal tune play the notes for the scale of the 4th for the key in which you are playing. If it's G flat seventh modal it will be C (the forth) scale notes G to G. For D it would be be G scale notes. For A it would be D scale notes. Etc, etc.

[SternART]

Phrygian dominant scale?

That one is also found in Klezmer music........sounds like Andy Statman when I use it!

[Rob Gerety]

I like reading these threads because usually, not always, I have it right in my head. One thing I can never keep in my head is what they mean by "modal" in Celtic speak. And I still don't really have that in my frontal lobe. Anyone care to help?

[Coffeecup]

Based on when I've heard the word used at sessions it seems to be a vague word used to tell the guitar strummer why his chords aren't working with the tune. They'll point out that the tone centre note isn't the same as the key signature and say "see, it's modal". Dorian and Mixolydian are the most common modes in Irish music but the tune players don't really need that much information.

[Brent Hutto]

Generally speaking, it's any song that's in a certain key signature (let's say one sharp) whose tonal centre is other than the 1st or 6th degree of the corresponding major scale.

So with one sharp if the tonal center or root note is G you'd be in "G major". If it's E you'd be in "E minor". Otherwise, let's say A is the note everything leads back to, I'd say you're in the key signature of G but "modal". In this case "A Dorian" if my memory is correct but the names sometimes escape me.

But there's a whole family of tunes in that specific mode, which I think is called "A Dorian", in the so-called Celtic or Old-Time America fiddle tune genres. They have been colloquially referred to as both "modal" and "A to G" tunes. That's a specific idiomatic use of the term "modal" not quite the same meaning as its technical music-theory usage.

[Randy Smith]

For some time I've thought that I understood the mixolodian mode but while reading this string it occured to me that I couldn't explain why a E major chord is in the progression for Red Haired Boy. The chords I've always played are A maj., D maj., G maj. and E maj. In A mixolodian the V chord should be a E minor.

I'm assuming someone combined the mode with the harmonic minor???

One choice:
Play string combinations using only E and B notes, which make the sound neither major nor minor--just an E sound. One way the guitarist can do this is to play an E major chord but bring his index finger up from the third string (G# note) to mute the note. If the third string is muted, neither the open G note or the fretted G# note will sound, and the resulting two notes will be only E and B. Together those notes are neither a major or minor chord. But they substitute for either chord in this instance. (P.S. All of this assumes the guitarist is playing in the key of A without a capo. There's another way to do it if the guitarists wants to use a capo.)
If you're playing mandolin, same difference in "Red-Haired Boy." Just play E and B note combination. Or play Emajor or E minor if you like that. It's all good.