Using a long scale bouzouki as an octave mandolin... ?

[gerardo1000]

I got a new Johnson 500 Irish bouzouki from Amazon a few days ago, and I am enjoying it a lot. After a few experiments, I settled for unison strings (as opposed to octave) and to GDAE tuning. I like the sound with this set up better. However, I must admit that the long neck of the bouzouki is quite demanding when playing chords, and requires a certain stretch of my fingers that are....well... 58 years old and not very fit ! So, here is my idea : what if I buy a set of octave strings ( as the D'Addarios 0.12, 0.22, 0.32, 0.46) i.e. heavier than the standard Irish bouzouki strings ( 0.11-0.40) then I put them on the bouzouki, and tune it a step lower i.e. F-C-G-D (so that the tension on the neck should be more or less the same). Then I keep a capo on the second fret, and I get a perfect GDAE tuning, and play the bouzouki as an octave mandolin. With a capo on the 2nd fret, in fact, the scale lenght of my bouzouki would go down from 26 1/4 inches to 23 1/4 inches, which is the standard scale lenght of a Johnson or Trinity College bouzouki. I could even consider to go down to the third fret and in this case I would get a scale lenght of around 22 inches.
What do you think ? Is there a flaw in my idea ? Or do you think it could work ?
Thank you for your opinions !

[Michael Wolf]

It works. Andy Irvine is doing this all the time, of course he plays in GDAD. But always one tone down and capo at 2nd fret.
I also play my bouzouki that way in GDAE from time to time, when I want to use it more as a melody instrument for the session. Most of the time I have it in GDAD and long scale, when I want to play mainly accompaniment and its the best sound for this.
I`d recommend to stay at the second fret, because I find FCGD also a usefull tuning and its nice to have it in the capo-free position.

[Padre]

well it will work, and you'll be able to play it
I'll say that it will be easier to play it as the tension on the strings will be lower.
but it's not gonna sound as without the capo.

[gerardo1000]

Michael, Padre,

Thank you for your opinion. Do you agree that if I do that it would be better to replace the current string gauge with
an Octave mandolin string gauge ? Otherwise I am afraid that the strings will be too loose.

[Bertram Henze]

Ideally, the gauge should be so as to generate the same tension you've had with GDAE; therefore - yes, if you go down to FCGD, those cables should be thicker.

Reminds me of what I always answer if somebody comments on my OM's short 21" scale length: "my instrument ends where bouzoukis have their capo"

There is a regular at our sessions who always has a capo on the 2nd fret of his 12 string guitar to make a shorter scale. And then he puts on a second capo sometimes!

[gerardo1000]

Problem is: even if I tune the bouzouki down to FCGD and capo it at the 2nd fret,, would an octave mandolin string set be too
thick ? I mean, they are made for octave mandolin whose neck lenght is usually between 20 and 21 inches, while with a capo on the 2nd fret my bouzouki scale lenght is 23 inches.

[Eddie Sheehy]

I use Octave mandolin strings on my 24 1/2" scale bouzouki - which I have now tuned to GGDDAAEE and use as an Octave Mandolin since I have a Foley tuned GGDDAADD. Check out the Unknown Tune in the Song-A-Week Social Group for a vid. The scale is long and my fingers are short so I use a lot of pivot/bounce/slide techniques instead of stretches. I'm currently having a 21" scale OM made to "replace" the zouk...

[klaezimmer]

I have no experience with D'Addario octave mandolin strings; but with their guitar and mandolin strings, they publish on the string package the string gauges, the tension the strings produce when tuned to pitch, and the scale length at which they produce the stated tension. IF the octave mandolin sets provide that information, I would, in your situation, set the capo to the nearest replication of the stated scale length and tune down ever how many half steps needed to make up for the number of frets to the capo. It has been my impression that, in general, bouzoukis are made to be strung at a lesser tension than a guitar or mandolin - that is a part of the makeup of the 'sploing' sound created by those instruments - so, stringing at too high of a tension will jeopardize the neck, the bracing of the top, etc. Without having a tension calculator at hand, I am suspecting that tuning down only one step will still be too tight. Again, though, if D'Addario specifies the scale length, try to match that. If they are aiming for the 23.5" scale, a step down may be all that is necessary. If it is for a 22" or so, give it some more thought.

[Padre]

how about a different angle.
when you're playing are you using 3 or 4 finger?
the way I'm playing tunes on zouk
I've my pinkie on 7th fret, takes a lil' bit of gettin used to that
especially with a heavier strings, but it works with a 66cm scale zouk.
also it helps a lot if you're not closing the neck in your hand
try to rest your thumb on the neck - little like in classical guitar playing
and reach the strings from there.
it takes time and work, but then again isn't everything?
I've move to zouk from tenor banjo, a lot shorter scale
and when I started I was trying pretty much the same ideas as you are
but the sound just wasn't there - even with pretty heavy strings
not to mention that the dunlop capo (cr@p BTW) didn't hold the strings properly
and there always was a buz of strings.
now there's no problem with that as I've changed the technique.
think about it and maybe try it ;-)

[Goodin]

dont do it. i developed chronic wrist tendinitis from playing melody on a long scale bouzouki. im only 31 and in good health. dont do it, trust me, its not worth it.

long scale zouks are better suited for backing. even capoed at the second fret it will be difficult for melody. and if you tune down, the strings will slack and you will lose volume and tone. the strings are already lose at standard pitch.

capoed to the 5th fret and up you will be fine. or get a 5 course. or have a long scale zouk for backing and a mandolin for melody, is my suggestion.

[Steve L]

dont do it. i developed chronic wrist tendinitis from playing melody on a long scale bouzouki. im only 31 and in good health. dont do it, trust me, its not worth it.

long scale zouks are better suited for backing. even capoed at the second fret it will be difficult for melody. and if you tune down, the strings will slack and you will lose volume and tone. the strings are already lose at standard pitch.

capoed to the 5th fret and up you will be fine. or get a 5 course. or have a long scale zouk for backing and a mandolin for melody, is my suggestion.

Were you trying to use mandolin fingering on the bouzouki? I've been playing melody on these for years and never had an issue, but I wouldn't dream of using mando fingering. I use 1 finger per fret and shift to get what I need up the neck. I think melody playing on the bouzouki sounds magnificent myself. Doesn't seem to be a problem for Greek musicians, though they use a different tuning than Irish/octave players

[Bertram Henze]

It is hard if not impossible to transfer mandolin playing style to zouks/OMs without changes. I use mandolin fingering on my OM, but I have to modify and shortcut phrases in the tunes to make that possible. It can be done.

[Goodin]

im not sure what you guys mean by "mandolin fingering". i play zouk in GDAD or ADAD tuning (actually, i use a 5 course tuned DADAD now). In GDAE I found it impossible to play melody on the long scale zouk. In GDAD/ADAD some tunes where most notes are on open strings its not so bad, but many of the tunes i have tried to learn on zouk just wont work without serious hand stretches.

i agree with you steve, melody on zouk sounds wonderful, just too difficult for me. i would say that many people will not have tendinitis issues playing zouk melody, if you limit your playing time, ...dont over do it. when i developed tendinitis i was playing in two bands, and practicing 3-4 hours per day, and i didnt rest, or stretch much.

so if you feel like you must play long scale zouk melody here is some advice: the main thing - if you feel any pain at all, stop immediately and rest a few days to a week. also, take breaks while playing, limit your playing time, and stretch often. it also helps to eat healthy and exercise and do yoga or stretching often.