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Thread: Does Sight affect what we hear?

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    Default Does Sight affect what we hear?

    I was visiting with a friend/customer this evening who is a Phd. pschycologist, he plays guitar and is a fine singer who has pretty refined taste in instruments. He showed me this video clip, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypd5txtGdGw which he was veiwing from his pschycologist point of view and blew him away, but it got me to thinking about how what we see affects what we hear.
    Does a "prettier" instrument sound better to some of us, many of us, all of us? Do we hear what maple back and sides actually sound like, or does our brain tell us what maple should sound like as opposed to some other wood? Do our pre-concieved notions dictate what we hear?
    I know there aren't firm answers, but I thought it might make a good discussion.

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    Default Re: Does Sight affect what we hear?

    It sure does to a lot of the mando and guitar buying public, but I tell my employees that we need to make guitars that a Doc Watson or Jose Feliciano or Rev. Gary Davis would appreciate. Get farther away from this crown at Mando Cafe for more of that. I think we might have the most critical and self critical of all plucked instrument appreciators here.

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does Sight affect what we hear?

    It sure seems like mandolins sound better to some people when they see certain names inlaid in the peghead.
    I'm not sure "pretty" instruments are always the most likely ones to be perceived as sounding better. There is so much "common knowledge" that old instruments sound better than new ones, that I think some people hear a better sound when they see that it comes from an old instrument. Seems a logical reason for "distressing" new instruments.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Does Sight affect what we hear?

    reminds me of a study I recently read about where a group of wine "experts" were assembled for a taste test and the cheap wine that they normally would scoff at was served in bottles with very prestigious labels. From what I remember, nearly all of the "experts" were very impressed with what they thought was an ultra high end wine. I think the premise would apply to a wide range of subjects, instruments being one of them. Food, wine, mandolins, guitars, etc. Our subconscious most definitely has the ability to fool us into believing what we want to believe.

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    Default Re: Does Sight affect what we hear?

    Watch the movie "Bottle Shock". Alan Rickman is brilliant, and the movie is based on the true story of Chateau Montelena of Napa, CA kicking French ass in the wine world.

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does Sight affect what we hear?

    We are adaptable organisms - if I paid a lot of money for it it just MUST sound good! Reminds me of Fred Flintstone chanting "I love my mother-in-law" over and over...
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

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    Default Re: Does Sight affect what we hear?

    Whether we want to admit it or not we tend to "hear" with our eyes. A well known instrument dealer used the blindfold method to find the right instrument for customers. The customer is blindfolded and tries several instruments, noting which ones were most favored, then the blindfold comes off. Give it the Doc Watson test.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Does Sight affect what we hear?

    i once read that herb albert (a&m records) was about to sign an act he'd seen but was stopped by sam cooke - who told him to turn around and just listen to the music. when he did so, the act (have no idea who it was) didn't sound all that great.

    mahogany has a particular sound - less so with maple and cedar, to my untrained ears (except that they don't sound like mahogany) - i don't think it has anything to do with preconceived notions. but if the instrument is a brute, the music suffers, imho - i can't see the forest for the trees - .

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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does Sight affect what we hear?

    I think that our sight affects our expectations re.certain instruments. We expect instruments made by top makers to always sound good. However,we know that it's not always the case. Living in the UK,i have very little experience of seeing & hearing top quality Mandolins such as Loars (except those of Bill Monroe & John Reichsman many years ago),Dudenbostel / Gilchrist etc.. I've heard & seen several other well known makes of Mandolin,which in the hands of their owners sounded very good indeed.I have also seen a few that sounded 'not so good' to put it mildly,one of the worst was a Gibson. However,that might have been due to poor set-up etc.,it certainly wasn't the sound i'd expect from a Gibson.
    My 'expectations' re.what any instrument is going to sound like,has far more to do with the person playing it than the name on the headstock,
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    Default Re: Does Sight affect what we hear?

    Ivan wrote:

    "My 'expectations' re.what any instrument is going to sound like,has far more to do with the person playing it than the name on the headstock."

    Here, here... spot on Ivan! Quite a few of my favorite musicians like David Rawlings, Peter Ella, Sam Bush, David Grisman, etc. could string up cardboard boxes, walk on stage and sound sweet to my ears!
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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does Sight affect what we hear?

    Great. Now I know why I like to practise in front of a mirror. The sound looks better with a player I like
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    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does Sight affect what we hear?

    That study isn't quite the same thing as hearing a "pretty" instrument. The reason you hear Vaa and Baa is because we've learned the difference between how to make a V and a B sound by the placement of your lower lip.

    I guess if a mandolin actually spoke then the comparison might be similar.

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    Default Re: Does Sight affect what we hear?

    For any test of a musical instrument or even performance to be valid from an objective point of view it must be done as a "blind test" with the evaluater unable to see the instrument. We see this often on this site where someone comments on the improvement of the tone of his instrument when he junked the stamped metal tailpiece and replaced it with a hundred dollar cast metal "work of art". The tone hasn't necessarily changed but the perception has been influenced by the fact that the instrument ought to sound better anytime you spend that kind of money on an "improvement".

    I have no prejudice against improving the looks of an instrument with expensive accessories (tailpiece, tuners bridge) but to assume they improve the sound is an exercise in self delusion.
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    Default Re: Does Sight affect what we hear?

    Some years ago a group of my friends held a blind tasting of various vodkas. I believe somewhere around 6 or 7 different labels, served in little glasses, each numbered. Both men and women tasted. Then a blind voting as to the favorite, least favorite, and such. The expense ranged from Skye, Stoly, to Dmitri, bargain basement. The cheapest won! The most expensive wasn't voted the least favorite but it was kind of in the middle of the pack. And not what you're thinking- we were tasting, not slugging it down.

    I think much of what we value in life is like that. Gigantic beautiful house, car, etc.- take away your and everyone else's eyesight and the world is considerably different. Old Confucian saying, I believe: 'wear leather soled shoes and the whole world is paved with leather'.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Does Sight affect what we hear?

    Of course it does. But when we play an instrument it is right there in front of our eyes, so why is this a problem?

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    Default Re: Does Sight affect what we hear?

    I think this can be very situational. In terms of my own playing, an aesthetically pleasing instrument (through the wide ranges of beautifully new or well mojod old one) might impact what I hear but, my hands for playability are the final decider.

    For hearing a performance (i.e., venue) what we see makes a great deal of difference in how the music is percieved. A pub or bar, or festival, people feel free to chat over the music they are hearing. While, in a concert hall, you only hear polite clapping and the inevitable coughs and throat clearing. Even how the performer appears impacts our expectations (e.g., Thile's messy hair or Big Mon's suit and hat).

    How an instrument attracts us, is as varied as our opinions on beauty. I believe if two instruments are equally set up and have essentially the same voice, folks would be more inclined to pick up and play the one that appealed to their aesthetic or preconcieved notions based on the name or country of origin.

    If it plays good for me it is good for me is my philosophy. I'm remarkably unintersted in defining or even having my personal choices in instruments validated by others. I make music for me, and those who listen. My instruments likely are better than my talent.

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does Sight affect what we hear?

    I just remembered the most obvious example. It's so ubiquitous that we've overlooked it so far in this thread.
    I don't know how many times I've heard someone say "That's a good sounding mandolin, for an A-model.".

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    Default Re: Does Sight affect what we hear?

    Hearing is absolutely a multimodal experience.

    The stock example of vision influencing "what we hear" is called the McGurk Effect (youtube link).
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    Default Re: Does Sight affect what we hear?

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    I don't know how many times I've heard someone say "That's a good sounding mandolin, for an A-model.".
    Great point so far as unmentioned. It's common lore here that body shape is not determinative of tone/quality - yet we get hung up on it plenty even knowing that.

    I recall a conversation among regular fans of a local bluegrass band when their mando player switched from a Weber F-style to a Kimble A. The Kimble has just phenomenal sound [great tone everywhere] - but a lot of people didn't like the way it sounded [so they said]. I think they scroll made a big difference to their ears - as the sound of that Kimble is dreamy good.

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    Default Re: Does Sight affect what we hear?

    And a new product is born...add-on scrolls and points for those crummy A-5s...

  21. #21

    Default Re: Does Sight affect what we hear?

    I should have used a better word than pretty, because my definition of pretty can vary widely from instrument to instrument, and probably from day to day. Attractive might have been a better choice. I think Rick is right that appearance seems more important to mandolin players in general than other instruments, but guitars may be catching up.
    It's just be part of being human, as Michael said, we tend to hear with our eyes. And maybe our wallets, too. I've hot rodded a lot of instruments and no one has ever said it made them sound worse, sometimes when I couldn't hear a difference before and after, but then it wasn't my money.
    Hey Rick, maybe the Tone-guard guy could incorporate add on scrolls & points onto the Tone-guard and then it would make A styles sound exponetially better.

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    Default Re: Does Sight affect what we hear?

    I wouldn't use internet logic as a yardstick for anything...

    Just about every stringed instrument brought forth on these pages in a "Look What I Just Bought" or "Pulled The Trigger..." thread is described as being "above average." How many "below average" instruments do people admit to? Are the laws of mathematics suspended in the pages of the Mandolin Cafe?

    I admit that my instruments were bought for a lot of different reasons. Working instruments, some for partial investment and appreciative value, I bought my CA guitar because it's a perfect cold-weather guitar, some because they're just "expected." (like an archtop on a big-bandstand...) But I bought each and every one (except the custom-built ones) after sitting and playing it. I liked the sound of the instrument before I reached into my pocket. (and I grew to love the custom ones...)

    That doesn't mean you have to share my choices or preferences! Aren't you glad it's that way...?

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    Default Re: Does Sight affect what we hear?

    Quote Originally Posted by JEStanek View Post
    I think this can be very situational. In terms of my own playing, an aesthetically pleasing instrument (through the wide ranges of beautifully new or well mojod old one) might impact what I hear but, my hands for playability are the final decider.

    Jamie
    I think I made this point in another thread recently. One would have to take a number of instruments and give them all an equal setup, and then do a blind test with a qualified player.

    Perhaps the ID of the mandolins would need to be hidden from the person setting them up as well so they're all receive the same attention - same action, same neck relief, same strings or the strings the manufacturer might recommend, same string spacing, same etc. This is fine because as I constantly hear, and mandolin should be properly setup by a qualified luthier anyway and not just played out of the box.

    Take Kentuckys for example. They seem to receive a fair bit of respect here, but that doesn't necessarily mean that every luthier is going to give one the setup it needs to shine.
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    Unrepentant Dilettante Lee Callicutt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does Sight affect what we hear?

    For some, moreso than others:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia

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    Default Re: Does Sight affect what we hear?

    Quote Originally Posted by resophil View Post
    ... how many "below average" instruments do people admit to? Are the laws of mathematics suspended in the pages of the Mandolin Cafe?
    Nope. It's the Mandolin Cafe, where all the women are smart, all the men are good looking, and all the mandolins are above average!
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