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Thread: Classical plectrum choice

  1. #26
    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Wow...
    three months since my last post here. Just had to jump in again to say the Roman plectrum rules!
    I definitely understand why so many classical players exclusively use this "funny" shape. After more than a decade of experimentation, and settling for most of that time on various large triangles as my favorites, I have found that this elongated Roman pick leaves the triangles in the dust for me, literally, in every aspect: tone control, articulateness, expression, clarity, volume, accuracy of intricate passagework - You name it. I tried going back to the triangle for several days, and was just getting used to it again... then I picked up the Roman one, and it blew everything I had just done right out of the water. It was like coming home again!

    I am so impressed! I wish I had tried this many years earlier. Live and learn, they say.

    bratsche
    Last edited by bratsche; Feb-08-2011 at 1:48pm.
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  2. #27
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Quote Originally Posted by bratsche View Post
    I definitely understand why so many classical players exclusively use this "funny" shape.
    Hmmmm... I did not know that was the case. I agree with you that it is a great invention but even among the classical players few use them with the exception of the disciples and admirers of Silvio Ranieri. I don't even know how many Roman players use that sort of pick.

    Just curious... where did you get yours or did you make it yourself?
    Last edited by Jim Garber; Feb-08-2011 at 12:43pm.
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  3. #28

    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    We may be few, Jim, but we are proud.

    Seriously, now, while you (Jim) are right as regards the "market-share" of Roman picks —too dumb a pun, even for me, to speak of "slim pickings"— I must say that I TOTALLY share bratsche's "revelation", simply by having had exactly the same personal/musical experience as she did.

    This, of course, is not any mark of purported "superiority", but a shared revelation —strikingly by some of us bowed-string players— that the Roman/Ranieri pick is indeed a Most Wonderful Thing.

    Speaking of which... time to play some. Later...

    Cheers,

    Victor
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  4. #29
    Registered User Margriet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    me too, I agree with bratsche - and with Victor. And I am a bowed-string player as well. I had the same with this plectrum as with the bow: so many possibilities !

    Never too late, bratsche, we enjoy!

  5. #30
    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Jim, I made it myself (see post #8, this thread, for the details).

    Maybe I overstated "so many"... but I was thinking of our friends abroad, with all their spectacular talent, particularly in the Netherlands!

    Now, I wonder how rare will be the sub-species of flatback mandola Roman plectrum players??

    Victor, I truly hope one day to play one of your excellent compositions. I have downloaded many of them, in hopes. They are still rather demanding for me to proper justice. But, I can aspire...

    bratsche
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  6. #31
    Registered User Glassweb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    hey guys... excuse my ignorance, but what's a Roman pick look like? Thanks!

  7. #32
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Here are a few of mine of various material.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  8. #33

    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    I wrote an article about plectrum some time ago (must be available on the net somewhere). As for a good choice of pick for the classical mandolin, there are 2 directions to go (in my opinion), either with the Roman style and this will require quite a radical change in plectrum technique or with the more traditional or common 'teardrop form' that was the choice of most of the mandolin virtuosos of the early part of the 20th century. You get an approximate shape and thickness with the small Gibson or Fender teardrop (0,70mm) and, if tortoiseshell is off limits, than the best material is celluloid. I found the heartshape celluloid (and tshell) picks made in Japan to be ideal though my personal choice has always been the Pettine style pick. With the pick comes the choice of strings and instrument. I don't like the nylon or equivalent picks, nor the rubber style used in Germany. Of course, they make a nice warm (helas dull) sound but they possibilities of tonal expression become severely limited with this type of pick.

  9. #34

    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    ... and here, of course, you get an illustrious "exception-to-the-exception", our own Maestro Richard Walz: also a fine violinist, and yet quite non-Roman, pick-wise, but of Pettine persuasion— nice picks, those!

    So it is wise to steer clear of generalizations, as they are generally off the mark— or at least allow for SO many exceptions that their generality is left rather shaky.

    I just try to play (and clearly need all the help I can get ). I also come from the MOST acrimonious background of "French" vs "German" (bass)-bows, an argument that is inane beyond words...

    Bratsche, I am ENORMOUSLY honored that a colleague like yourself is trying her hand at my mandolin solo works. I suspect, however, that you are being somewhat too modest: as a professional-grade violist, you must certainly be able to play some of those works with no trouble at all— even on the larger scale of the mandola. For one, immediate example, my Suite for Ali was written for her to play on her "Beast", her Pecoraro octave-mandolin; all the passagework is laid out on the fingerboard with that, significantly larger scale-length in mind. So you should have absolutely no problem with it. (Needless to say, you can play it sounding a fifth lower, fingered as on a mandolin— that is, for example, the way Alex plays the Sarabande and the Gigue on the mandoloncello, also a CGDA-tuned instrument).

    Cheers,

    Victor
    Last edited by vkioulaphides; Feb-09-2011 at 7:59am.
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  10. #35

    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Hello,

    Could You tell me if You know a good source of celluloid sheets suitable for making roman picks in Europe? I have been lookng for that with no success, except some rather thin (0.7-0.8mm) pickguards, or laminated ones for electric guitars.
    Are there laws in UE that suspend trading the celluloid?

    Here are some of picks I made myself, two on top from garbaged CDs, the lower one from some plastic coverage of blank cd cake box. They are ok, but somehow undurable, too thin (I think), and unpractical - clear plastic is hardly seen and easy to lose.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Cheers, Antek.

  11. #36
    Registered User timthebear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    I note with pleasure this discussion since I have tried making picks from a couple of different materials. My wife used to work as a teacher for a guy who moved pianos and restored them. One time I must have expressed an interest in the ivory that naturally comes from such an enterprise in terms of key tops. I have made at least one ivory pick before and didn't like it because it was too big, broad, and inflexible. But along with all the ivory in that bag was some plastic, which I had pretty much regarded as being useless. I tried a few picks from this material, liking best the broadest and stiffest (I don't care for excessive pinginess in mandolin tone, which for me comes with a tip that is pretty small and snappy). Being a bassoonist, I used my reed knife (no, not the tip knife) to help with the shaping and carving, liking best the ones with the most regular and limited taper (like keeping a "heart" in the reed). Some piano keys are perhaps old enough to be celluloid; I don't know. The material I have is a relatively creamy composition that is pretty tough, but not at all brittle. I found the nylon picks I had to make a pretty raggedy-feeling, if not sounding, attack. I will try making a roman pick; I can see how the length would allow for some flexibility of response, kind of like a bow. I am curious to see what one might look like in cross section.
    tgb

  12. #37

    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    The cross-section is much like the outline- a flatish pointy oval

  13. #38
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    I have wrestled with the Red Bear Roman, and just can't seem to get the hang of it. I would love to see a slow motion video of one of you playing with it. I am especially having trouble with tremolo, and string crossings. It just feels so awkward and clunky. And I have given it more than the old college try.
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  14. #39
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Jeff: come on down to southern NY state sometime and I can show you what I do. Of course, there is no guarantee that it is correct but it seems to work okay and sound does come out the of the mandolin.

    For the real expert, check out Ralf Leenen's video.

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  15. #40

    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Great material for making picks and probably the right gauge or thickness for the Ranieri/Roman style pick are old imitation piano ivory. In otherwords the keytops made from celluloid 'ivory' piano keytops.

  16. #41
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    ........ but it seems to work okay and sound does come out the of the mandolin.


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  17. #42
    Work in Progress Ed Goist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    I've been following this discussion with much interest.

    I currently use (and very much like) a pick that is pointed, fairly narrow (side to side), and fairly thick (1.2mm). My current pick of choice is this relatively small teardrop shaped pick:

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    However, I'm thinking that the longer Roman plectrum would be worth a try. I like the idea of a pick that is narrow, larger (long), and pointed all at the same time.

    Unfortunately, I am having a hard time finding a relatively inexpensive commercial example of one. I'd love to give one of these a try, but can't see spending $30 without knowing I'll use it.

    Does anyone have any suggestions where I should look?
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  18. #43
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    There are few commercial examples available. The best ones (aside from excellent ones that were given to me by friends who play in this style) so far were ones I made myself out of a sheet of ultem plastic (third example pictured in post #32 above).

    BTW I used this pattern from Ralf Leenen.

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  19. #44
    Registered User Margriet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Goist View Post


    However, I'm thinking that the longer Roman plectrum would be worth a try. I like the idea of a pick that is narrow, larger (long), and pointed all at the same time.

    Unfortunately, I am having a hard time finding a relatively inexpensive commercial example of one. I'd love to give one of these a try, but can't see spending $30 without knowing I'll use it.

    Does anyone have any suggestions where I should look?

    Ed, why not trying to make yourself ? On the website of Alex: www.embergher.com there is explained how to make them. We did. We experimented first with plastic, with cowhorn. Later I found old celluloid and tortoise shell, those give better results. Once you know that you like it, you can make or buy better ones. Every material has it's own character. Trying and experimenting learns you the effects of kind of material, different shape, thickness, the sharpness of the point. If you make it yourself, it is also up to you to change it, to file again, to polish.... After this you will better know what you are searching for.
    It is something I like, maybe you as well.

    Margriet

  20. #45

    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    I can attest as eyewitness that Margriet made one such pick in my presence, over a cup of coffee and a friendly chat at my home last week. So she certainly means what she says. Sure, why not experiment? There are SO many variables there, not least of all the strings, to say nothing of the mandolin itself. Try, listen, try harder/better next time...

    Cheers,

    Victor
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  21. #46
    Work in Progress Ed Goist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Jim; thanks for the "four circle" pattern. That's something that I think even I can do!
    Margriet and Victor, thanks for the replies.
    Any suggestions on where I can find a sheet of suitable raw materials?
    c.1965 Harmony Monterey H410 Mandolin
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  22. #47
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    I got 2 sheets (.03 and .06) of Ultem at smallparts.com. You can make quite a few picks from that. it is pretty tough material. The thinner stuff you can cut with a sharp scissors. The thicker I used a tin snips. I rough shaped and bevelled with a Dremel tool then used finer and finer nail polishers to smooth the edges out.
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  23. #48
    Registered User Margriet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Goist View Post
    the "four circle" pattern.
    that is a good start, indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Goist View Post

    Any suggestions on where I can find a sheet of suitable raw materials?
    Just to try and without spending money, you can take something old, that you have or find in your neighborhood. We made plectra f.i. from an old printer, from a comb. We experienced in making and learned of the kind of material ( mostly too soft = rapidly using and not clear sound). Meanwhile looking for real celluloid, by fleamarkets/ antique shops/advertisements. ( once you are infected .

    Another option: I can make you one of celluloid and send. If you do not like, send it back.
    Margriet

  24. #49

    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Fast picks:

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    The picture is slef-explanatory (I hope). After cutting, the edges need to be done - at least with nail-care-polish file.
    These picks are rather thin, I think (as for mandolin).

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    But if you want the tickness to be decreasing gradually, it will require much more work.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Anyway, still no celluloid. Some old accordions have the "speaker" covered with celluloid frame. But it is as hard to find as an old piano keyboard....

    Margriet: Thanks a lot for your effort but for a now, I would try more for myslef. If everything let down, I would ask you.

  25. #50
    Registered User timthebear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    I found that a wet emery finishing sponge with a variety of surfaces was useful to take down and then polish (plastic) surfaces after getting a general shape (not a roman shape yet) roughed in. It does have the advantage of being more "circular" in its abrasion, rather than emery paper, which would tend toward a more flat take off; it's also what I had on hand. It might be interesting to try also for final finishing what reed players call dutch rush - that is, horsetail (equisetum), which has a high silica content but is pretty gentle in its action. I didn't find a dremel terribly useful except for some pretty brutal removal (plastic burns), but I don't have fine skill with it. it was ok for polishing, which would probably be better with some very fine abrasive like the sort of liquid abrasive you use on a car polisher.
    tgb

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