Classical plectrum choice

[Ed Goist]

I've decided making a Roman Plectrum for myself is a little too daunting of a task. (This kind of thing doesn't fit nicely into my skill set ).
Hence, I've decided to go about this a little differently.
Hoping someone can help me out.

[antekboodzik]

My trouble is where to get apropriate material for roman plectrums, not how to make them or polish.

[Jim Garber]

anteboodzik... I find the Ultem plastic excellent material but so far I have been able to shape the thinner material down but have a hard time working the thicker one (about 1.5mm). I can rough shape3 using my Dremel tool but have to find the right machinery or abrasives to polish it and shape it.

[bratsche]

I would like to start experimenting with different materials, too. They are unfortunately hard to come by, though, especially since 1.5mm is a thickness I consider ultra-thin for my Roman plectra (any thinner than that I've found useless to me) and I prefer it to be over 2mm, ideally around 2.4mm, because I like to grade the bevel very very gradually so it (the bevel) is at least 1/4" -3/8" wide and so smooth as to have no visible "seam". I form my bevel with sandpaper (by rubbing the plectrum on the sandpaper, not the sandpaper on the plectrum!) and then polish it with MicroMesh 1500 grit all the way down to 8000.

bratsche

[Jim Garber]

bratsche, I would be interested in what materials you have used?

The Ultem I have used comes in .09"/2.28mm 12x12" for $41.67. You should get plenty of picks out of that sheet. However, this stuff is super tough and prob would need to be rough cut with a bandsaw and may take a fair amount of time and effort to get that bevel right.

I have a pro-made plectrum from Europe but I would be surprised if it is much more than 1.5mm at the thickest. I will try to measure it with a micrometer sometime.

[bratsche]

I've only used an antique dental material so far, Jim.

Is the ultem material flexible or stiff? I am hesitant to purchase so much. I'd like to ideally find a small amount of whatever stuff, enough to make one or two picks, to see if I like the material.

I wonder what the dark materials in the picture by Ralf that Ed used in his want ad are. The picks are lovely looking! The reflections on the one at the far left show the kind of seamless thickness gradation I like to aim for. (I don't like quite as sharp a point as that, though!)

bratsche

[Jim Garber]

I wonder what the dark materials in the picture by Ralf that Ed used in his want ad are. The picks are lovely looking! The reflections on the one at the far left show the kind of seamless thickness gradation I like to aim for. (I don't like quite as sharp a point as that, though!)

This is the "material that cannot be named". I learned my lesson from a prior thread. I will PM you.

[bratsche]

Oh, bummer. Say no more! Mine can barely be named around here either. Guess I should edit my post so this thread isn't threatened.

bratsche

[antekboodzik]

This is the "material that cannot be named". I learned my lesson from a prior thread. I will PM you.

Not a celluloid? Why it is so strange around?

[antekboodzik]

And finally....

Smell of a camphor !!! (a smell of success )

In desperation, I have "starighten" a celluloid thumb pick, screwing it between two pieces of dry plywood, and boiling it in water for a some time.



It makes quite interesting shape:



I must admit, that this is my best pick so far. Celluloid is much more easy to cut (with scissors) and shape than a CD-plastic, and produces a sweet, light tone, without ringing and popping on the string. But it is still quite thin (not more than 1,2mm).

And still to idea how to get just one thicker celluloid sheet... It is a secret, where do they have it, or what?

[bratsche]

Hi Antek - That was certainly a clever idea! I don't know about celluloid in Europe, but perhaps you might be interested in this source in America I found online. The celluloid sheets they have are a little over 3mm thick, but they look attractive, and I might try one myself some day.

bratsche

[antekboodzik]

Bratsche, thanks a lot, but actually I emailed them and they didn't reply me... Don't know, it is suspended to send the celluloid, as it is highly flammamble? Please, let me know if you would be purchasing it

[Margriet]

Antek:

Smell of a camphor !!! (a smell of success )

Yes! the smell of camphor !
This is one of the characteristics that you recognize at celluloid, when you work on it.

I must admit, that this is my best pick so far. Celluloid is much more easy to cut (with scissors) and shape than a CD-plastic. But it is still quite thin (not more than 1,2mm).

I cut it with a small hacksaw or fretsaw and file with keyfiles in the right shape( I hope all these translations of technical things do work....) I think the material I actually have, is too thick for scissors. I welcome the suggestion, given before, of nailfiles !
Timthebear:
The finishing I do with sandpaper (very fine) and at the final end, olive oil and polish, called in German "Bimmstein", "Tripel" or "Wiener Kalk". It is actually VERY fine powder. I would like to try your suggestions as well:

It might be interesting to try also for final finishing what reed players call dutch rush - that is, horsetail (equisetum), which has a high silica content but is pretty gentle in its action.

some very fine abrasive like the sort of liquid abrasive you use on a car polisher.

Maybe also the (cheap) stuff to clean, f.i. in the kitchen, will work as well, I do not know yet.

And still to idea how to get just one thicker celluloid sheet... It is a secret, where do they have it, or what?

Bratsche: what a great found! So far I used old celluloid and sometimes I needed to sacrifice a nice made thing. I see now, that Antek had problems with ordering. Hope it turns out well.
There are also suggestions of Jim "ultem" and Richard "celluloid ivory tops of piano keys". Are that tops of the keys thick enough ?

In desperation, I have "starighten" a celluloid thumb pick, screwing it between two pieces of dry plywood, and boiling it in water for a some time.

Very happy to know that this is working. I am wondering how recycable celluloid is. This is something for the chemists among us. Is it and end-product ? Like you cannot turn the process the other way round with 2-components glue? Or is there a way to melt it, solve it, glue too thin material to each other like multiplex? If so, what kind of glue will be appropriate?

and produces a sweet, light tone, without ringing and popping on the string

Yes, that is also my experience. My teacher (Sebastiaan de Grebber) likes it a lot.

Tim:

I can see how the length would allow for some flexibility of response, kind of like a bow. I am curious to see what one might look like in cross section.

I do not exactly know what you are meaning ( it is because of the language, sorry).
For sure you have flexibility because of the length. The piece that comes above your hand is "flippering", while your last three fingers are "hanging", in e reaxed way, as a contra-weight. This is a matter of right - hand technique, which Alex Timmerman can explain. He did it, in the past, but the thread has come unreachable. Maybe he will chime in, once he has time. Sofar we can have a look at the hands of players, on video. And trying, practicing.

Margriet

[bratsche]

Well, you'll be happy to know that I gave in to temptation, and ordered a small slab of the pretty celluloid that looks like that-material-which-shall-not-be-named. When I figured out that I should be able to get 10 or more picks out of it, I was sold. At 3mm+, I strongly doubt that scissors will cut it. LOL! And if it's flammable, I might want to avoid high speed tools as well. Time for the coping saw, methinks.

This should be interesting... I love to experiment!

bratsche

[Margriet]

This should be interesting... I love to experiment!

bratsche

Me too! Good that you could order. I will have a try as well. This is much better than putting the saw in nice vintage/antique things.

Today I tried on a small piece of thick celluloid, to make it thinner and flatter and warmed it into boiling water......it changed of color ànd of character of material. No success...... I don't know how Antek did succeed.

Bratsche, I would take a saw and files on the material that has that thickness as you describe. There is risk that the material breaks, with scissors, it is too thick. Success, with making this small surfboard! I am curious to your experiences.

Margriet

[bratsche]

Success, with making this small surfboard!
margriet

"Small surfboard", indeed! LOL!


bratsche

[vkioulaphides]

Tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiny little surfers in Malibu LOVE these!

Cheers,

Victor

[antekboodzik]

Margriet: Celluloid doesn't became liquid in temperature, it just get softer and can be bend etc. I succeded, as I have softened (in just warm water) and bent upwards a thumbpick to be at least straight enought to put it between two scraps of plywood. Then, screwed up tightly with clamps, it was boiled for some time, just to start the wood to soak and expand, so it made a pretty high pressure over my celluloid piece. Then, I have cooled it rapidly in cold water, to save new shape... It is written correctly?

Also, you can just dry a nitrocellulose laquer finish, pourng it into a flat surface, about 150-200% of final thickness... teflon frying pan would be perfect just to not to get the finish to stay on it I wonder if it is even possible. Nitrocelluloses can be made at home too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDmKStZbbOg
Easy, isn't it?

Back to reality, let us know if you purchase any celluloid shets

best regards, Antek.

[Margriet]

Hi Antek,

thanks for your explanation and link. I enjoyed the video (and Metallica ).

I think I boiled my piece of celluloid to long and that it was too thick to bent or flatten slightly.

On the video they recycle ping pong balls. What gives me the hope that I will be able to recycle small pieces of celluloid ( with tortoise shell pattern), that I gathered, like teeth of a comb and the small pieces that rest if you saw a plectrum. It is wothto try.

I am feeling like we are alchemists

We will keep in touch, I like this thread.

Margriet

[bratsche]

Another possible celluloid source, lifted from a current thread on pickguard material:

http://www.axinc.net/category_s/47.htm

bratsche

[Jim Garber]

Main problem is that Axion adds $25 haz/mat shipping surcharge. I did not see that on the Texas Knife site tho it may appear when you finalize the order.

[bratsche]

Whoa! I didn't see that, sorry! Texas Knife has shipped my order already (for $6.35) and there was nothing like that added. Whew!

bratsche

[billkilpatrick]

And finally....

Smell of a camphor !!! (a smell of success )

In desperation, I have "starighten" a celluloid thumb pick, screwing it between two pieces of dry plywood, and boiling it in water for a some time.



It makes quite interesting shape:



I must admit, that this is my best pick so far. Celluloid is much more easy to cut (with scissors) and shape than a CD-plastic, and produces a sweet, light tone, without ringing and popping on the string. But it is still quite thin (not more than 1,2mm).

And still to idea how to get just one thicker celluloid sheet... It is a secret, where do they have it, or what?

brill' idea!

[bratsche]

I am pleased with the product and service offered by Texas Knife. It arrived in record time. Here is my first attempt at a celluloid Roman pick. I like it! It produces a good full sound on my mandola, even as pointy as it is (I decided not to round it too much at first, in order to test it this way), and the material feels good in my hand and is attractive to look at, too.

For the record, I don't know what all the hubbub about flammability was about. There was no way I was cutting this material to shape with a saw by hand, I knew that in the first instant I tried it! So I went outside and gingerly touched the diamond wheel of my Dremel to it, expecting it to burst into flames at any moment, but it did not, and was actually quite pleasant to work with.

Surf's up!

bratsche

[Jim Garber]

Nice work. Bratsche! Margriet gave me a nice piece of celluloid so when the weather gets nice -- I like to work outside with this stuff -- I will try a few picks as well.