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Thread: Classical plectrum choice

  1. #76
    Registered User Margriet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Nice, Bratsche !
    Very good to know, that the Texas knife celluloid works well. It is such good knews, to know that it is still available and for a reasonable price.

    About flammability: I always work on my lap, just where I am, do not go outside specifically for it. I think it will burn, when it gets fire. Pingpong balls are made of celluloid as well and they burn in a moment to nothing, when we experimented in childhood. Maybe because of that story it has it's name of being flammable. But you can smell the camphor, isn't it ?
    How do you like the thickness? And what did you do for polishing?

    I like the shape of your plectrum. What do you mean with "I decided not to round it too much at first" ? It seems to be nice. If I see it well, the two points have a bit difference in being round/pointy. My last one by coincidence as well. By this you can try out what you like, it gives a bit different sound.

    Jim, my piece is good enough, maybe the piece of Bratsche is a bit thicker and even better.

    Margriet

  2. #77

    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Quote Originally Posted by bratsche View Post
    Surf's up! bratsche
    very pretty - complimenti - but that photo does, indeed, look like the hand of big kahuna bequeathing the first surfboard to hawaii.

  3. #78
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Margriet View Post
    Jim, my piece is good enough, maybe the piece of Bratsche is a bit thicker and even better.
    The one I got from you (thanks so much, again!) is about 2mm whereas the Bratsche/Texas Knife piece is 3mm/1.8". I think the ideal is to have that center of the pick pretty thick and taper to the sides. I will experiment with the euro-celluloid (from Margriet) then might order a piece of the thicker piece. In the meantime I also have a piece of old piano keyboard top but that is thinner than both so may not be as good.
    Jim

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  4. #79
    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Thanks for the feedback, everyone!

    Margriet, I like the thickness just fine. I like thick picks, but Jim has it exactly right - I have very strongly tapered it to the sides. So it does not play like you think a 3.2mm pick would! I polished it as I do generally, using finer and finer sandpaper followed by MicroMesh in varying grades, all the way down to 8000 or 12000 grit. A long and tedious process, but it ends up very smooth and glassy. Now, I thought I knew what to expect camphor to smell like, but I must have had it confused with something else. But it does have a very distinctive odor!

    Quote Originally Posted by Margriet View Post
    What do you mean with "I decided not to round it too much at first" ? It seems to be nice. If I see it well, the two points have a bit difference in being round/pointy. My last one by coincidence as well. By this you can try out what you like, it gives a bit different sound.
    Margriet
    Before I ever tried playing with a Roman shaped plectrum, I had used triangular picks that were more rounded on the points. I never really liked picks that were super-pointy, because I seemed to always hear more playing noise with them. Thus when I first made my own elongated, Roman-shaped picks, I would slightly round the points of them. With this new celluloid one, I have not done so because I wanted to try it in all of its pointy glory first. I may eventually make one of the points rounder, or else just make another plectrum with rounded points, to compare them. (I also wonder how long it takes a pointy point in this material to wear down naturally by abrasion to become more rounded.)

    Next experiment will be with the Ultem material which Jim so kindly sent me, and which is less than half as thick as the celluloid.

    Here is something interesting I read on the Ultem page Jim linked to up-topic. About the material, it says:

    "It is soluble in partially halogenated solvents but resistant to alcohols, acids and hydrocarbon solvents."

    I wonder if I were to find a "partially halogenated solvent" (whatever that would be; I am not a chemist!) if I could use it to slightly melt and join two thicknesses of the Ultem together?

    If that is not feasible or possible, maybe one day I will spring for a sheet of the thicker Ultem. Or maybe, if several of us were interested, we could split the order. (A square foot sure is a lot of pick material...)

    bratsche
    Last edited by bratsche; Apr-16-2011 at 9:51pm.
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  5. #80
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    I am curious how you like the Ultem material. A sheet of 12 X12 X 1/8" (3.2mm) would only be $41 plus shipping. Not so bad, really.
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    Registered User timthebear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    [QUOTE=bratsche;918558]

    I never really liked picks that were super-pointy, because I seemed to always hear more playing noise with them. Thus when I first made my own elongated, Roman-shaped picks, I would slightly round the points of them. With this new celluloid one, I have not done so because I wanted to try it in all of its pointy glory first. I may eventually make one of the points rounder, or else just make another plectrum with rounded points, to compare them.


    I didn't either. I have finally made what looks to pretty much like the Roman plectra I've seen, from a recycled piano key top (celluloid, I think, from the smell) and have enjoyed its precision minus pick-related pinging. I thought perhaps that mine wasn't quite pointy enough; as a bassoonist, I remember being very concerned about the tip in reedmaking, and this is very similar in some ways. Anyway, being a 2 pointed critter, it turned out slightly broader on one end; I find that I like the finer point, but I can see that it is going to wear away relatively quickly and require fairly frequent adjustment - also like a reed, I'm chagrined to say. Making two ends with different playing characteristics seems pretty obvious to me, but I've no experience with this other than quite lately.
    Does anyone have any experience in making a Roman type pick with ivory? I have scads of it, much more than celluloid. It would of course be much stiffer and would have a different response pattern. It might need to be too thin to be of much use in order for it to work satisfactorily. Any ideas or experiences?

    regards from the coast,
    tgb

  7. #82
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    I also just bought a piece of piano key that the seller says is genuine pachyderm dental tissue. I know that bratsche makes regular picks from that material.
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  8. #83
    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Yes, I have made myself a few Roman ones, but not from piano key tops - those are rarely above 1.1mm thick, many are under 1mm. Much too thin for my liking, especially for the Roman style. At that length, they would flex - I want them to be stiff, whatever the composition material - just my preference.

    Jim, regarding the Ultem (which I haven't had time to work with yet, I've been busy and a little under the weather), I wasn't saying that was a bad price for the thicker material, but truthfully, times are really tough (my season just ended until November, along with other things I won't bore you with) and since it would be much more pick material than I would ever use, I'd feel a lot better about going in with somebody (or somebodies) who had an interest, rather than buying the whole sheet myself.

    bratsche
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  9. #84
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    bratsche: I was not quibbling with you on the price... in fact I would prob go in with you on a sheet and yes, you can get quite a few picks from that sheet.

    I was talking with a friend who is setting up some sort of CNC machine and he was saying that he may be able to cut blanks out of that material on his machine. I have no heard back yet tho.
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  10. #85
    Registered User Margriet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    I like as well the material to be stiff enough - so thick enough and the points not too pointy. And I think two different points are useful. I am also experimenting with a smaller shape, more narrow.
    The celluloid that I have, is from an antique small tray. As I said, it is good enough, but I think I prefer the Texas-knife-Bratsche material, with 3mm thickness. No need anymore to saw the old nice things.
    About recycling of celluloid: I asked a chemist and he said it is a polymere. Melting is not possible, only maybe solving like the pingpongball in the video of Antek, but he thinks there will be also the rest of aceton, that is not ideal. When I asked about gluing thin pieces to each other, he answered that polymere is a kind of plastic, so that is difficult to glue that it stays together for always.
    Knowing the celluloid that Bratsche bought and used is good ( thanks for sharing, Bratsche) and payable, I conclude not to put energy anymore in trying to recycle. The pieces I have are still good. If I need more, I would go for the Bratsche material. And if you have too much, Bratsche, I can share and buy a piece from you. The same with the ultem, Jim and my celluloid or cow horn. ( though the cow horn is a bit soft.)

    Timthebear, I heard of a mandolinist who used piano key ivory for a plectrum; he says it is difficult to play, because you have to be very relaxing with the right hand.

    Margriet

  11. #86
    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    I've just finished my first Roman plectrum with the Ultem that Jim sent - and it is really amazing material! Despite being half as thick as the celluloid, it was actually more difficult to work, which I assume to mean it is significantly harder. He told me it was some tough stuff; well, that is certainly true on the polishing end. I deliberately only polished the edges of this pick, and made the center portion a little rougher with 400 grit sandpaper. Ironically, this material is highly polished to begin with, which I found out after finally realizing it had a protective film covering both faces. That was a big "duh" moment for me, as I had wondered why it seemed to be so brittle that it was de-laminating at the surface, or something. But the reason I roughed it up is because I made a nick on the surface while cutting out the shape, and wanted to camouflage it!

    As to how it plays, it really gives a wonderful big sound. It is noticeably more bright a sound than the darker-timbred celluloid tone, but I don't know if that is only because it's thinner. It's a clear, pure kind of bright, without any harshness. (I am comparing the two on one of my mandolas.)

    If I get some thicker Ultem, it will be interesting to compare the thicknesses, but it will surely take a while to make a pick just based on how long this one took. On the positive side, I imagine it will last very long, just judging how long this one took to sand and polish! Oh - and this one is actually a wee bit flexible. I don't know how that will affect my enjoyment of playing with it, as I've only done so for a short time. But you can feel the strings' vibration through it in your fingers, which I am not accustomed to from playing only with picks that are 100% rigid.

    But initially - I am very favorably impressed with the quality. Thank you again, Jim! I hope you've all had a wonderful Easter!

    bratsche
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  12. #87
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Nice job, bratsche! I have only been successful on the thinner stuff. Even thicker will be really interesting.
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice


    Fender Heavy, Teardrop 354. Always. They are nice and stiff and you can buy them cheaply (by the 1/2 gross). I tend to go through them quite quickly: if I'm playing normally, they last a few weeks; if I'm playing something contemporary, they might only last a piece... I don't usually use fake-tortoiseshell ones, since my preference is for white, but that's what they sent me last order.
    After some playing the edges do wear down. That in itself isn't the problem. What can be tricky is that one gets used to playing with a worn plectrum, and then the one uses a fresh one those extra 1/2 millimetres are the difference between a delicate played at speed upstroke and missing. I find it takes 20 minutes or so to get back accuracy after that kind of change. On the other hand, I do think they are nicer to use after a little playing, if only so they stick to the fingers better. That may sound unpleasant, but it's useful for keeping the wrist loose.
    Also, I think this plectrum has, for me, the right curvature. Although I don't really move it around much, sometimes it is necessary to be percussive with the edge, hitting the string. Anything too big and one is prone to hit too many strings at once!
    (I do find it easier to tremolo with a stiffer plectrum, though it doesn't make that much difference.)
    By the way, the pic is my normal hand position when playing (well, more normally there's a mandolin there...). Fingers out of the way, arched wrist, nice and loose.

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Here is some superlative playing - and some close ups of classical plectrum technique.


    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
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    Registered User timthebear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    The same with the ultem, Jim and my celluloid or cow horn. ( though the cow horn is a bit soft.)

    Thanks, Margriet, for the info about the ivory. I do not much like working with ivory (nor do the others in my house) because it stinks when you work it. Maybe I will save it for some other purpose. I think it might be pretty miserable to play with as well; too hard. I have to say that I saw it once again listed as plectrum material in a facsimile of a mandolineschule that I was reading for fun on the web, along with bone, which seems like a most unlikely material. I was just thinking about the possibility of horn as a plectrum material when I saw your comment. There might be some bison horn available locally, and there is an elk farm nearby, not to mention the many cattle farms hereabouts. I wonder if they are all pretty much the same.
    Here's a question for anyone: are all shells of turtles verboten, or just the shells of tortoise? It is not uncommon here to come across the shell of road-killed turtles, some of which can be reasonably large. Has anyone ever done that kind of recycling?

    I am enjoying using the Roman plectrum I have made. The thin breadth has allowed me to shift from a three fingered grip (PIM) which I have usually used with broader picks to a two fingered grip (PI). It allows some control over the precision in depth of stroke to avoid hitting the fingerboard extension on my mando which runs right over the sound hole and is really quite close to the string and rather annoying since it changes the voice of the first course.

    Have fun.

    tgb

  16. #91

    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Margriet View Post
    About recycling of celluloid: I asked a chemist and he said it is a polymere. Melting is not possible, only maybe solving like the pingpongball in the video of Antek, but he thinks there will be also the rest of aceton, that is not ideal. When I asked about gluing thin pieces to each other, he answered that polymere is a kind of plastic, so that is difficult to glue that it stays together for always.
    Margriet
    Sorry, celluloid can be solved with ease, glued, melted (but it is technically challenging, as it is flammamble - correct me if you see mistakes or misspeches), and it is not exactly a polymere... please look at this:

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    I cut three thumbpicks onto a small parts, put it in a jar and add acetone (100% from hardware store, acetone for removing nail laquer has too much water). It took far less time to solve I have expected (hours, not days), but at first I made the mixture too dense, so I added some more acetone and let it stay fot a night. Then I have poured it to some plastic packet and it produced funny, celluloid boat (nottice the initial level of a liquid mixture):

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    It is not perfect, only "walls" of the boat are stiff and transparent, the flat, bottom part is matty and somehow flexible, but maybe it not dried completely. And still quite thin in fact...
    May I join you in the celluloid sharing business?
    Greetings, Antek.

  17. #92
    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Very interesting experiment. So now I may need to be saving my leftover celluloid scrap. ;-) Antek, you asked for correction: the particular word you (and Margriet, too) want for describing this process is "dissolve", not "solve".

    Timthebear: I would never recommend working indoors with ivory, for the reason you noted, or not wearing a mask when stirring up dust from it. That "stink" is rather like a dentist drilling your teeth, no?

    JeffD: thanks for posting one of my favorite Bach mandolin videos from YouTube. That is certainly some technique to emulate! (If only!)

    bratsche
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    My favorite as well. Its the real deal.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  19. #94
    Registered User Alex Timmerman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Hi JeffD and Bratsche,

    Yest that one is sure an excellent and beautiful Bach performance! There is another Bach video by Sebastiaan de Grebber that I like very much. And also on that one you can see how
    the Roman plectrum - a real 'classical' plectrum - can be used.

    Enjoy and here is the link to that one.


    Best, Alex.

    Last edited by Alex Timmerman; May-05-2011 at 3:12pm.

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    Registered User Margriet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    thanks everyone contributing here, I like it very much, we help each other this way.

    Jeff and Alex, thanks for sharing the videos, I like them a lot and they are very helpful to seeing the technique of holding and playing the Roman plectrum.

    Bratsche, yes, dissolve that is the word.....thanks.

    Antek: it seems that my "chemist man" was wrong. I showed him the formule on the web, but....
    Sorry, for the wrong information and thanks for sharing your experiments.
    I have rest parts of cutting and also teeth of a comb, I can always have a try like you, instead of throwing them away. Anyway, I am glad with the availability that Bratsche discovered.
    What exactly are you meaning by "joining in the celluloid sharing business?" To send each other examples? To buy together a bigger piece at Texas knifes ? To share experiences ?

    Timthebear: I did not want to discourage you, making plectra out of horn. The ones we made are rather nice and it is also a question of taste and the effect on the instrument, the strings and the music. For the mandoloncello of Alex it was a bit too soft. But some others liked it on the mandolin. We made them from horn of a Scottish Highlander. We did not discover yet the whole horn, maybe there are softer and harder parts of the horn. So I would say: have a try, and find out what you like.
    About the tortoise shell: I do not have an answer on your question about the road- killed turtles, I do not know. The only tortoise shell I recycled, was from before 1947. There were things made of it and I could make plectra out of these.

    Margriet

  21. #96

    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Margriet View Post
    To buy together a bigger piece at Texas knifes ?
    Yes, that would be a good idea. From here:
    http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/index...th=587_604_607
    or here, at least as far at it is not a laminated material:
    http://www.axinc.net/category_s/47.htm

  22. #97
    Registered User Enzo Puzzovio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Hello everyone, I've just joined the Café. I'm about to take up the baroque mandolino and puzzled about choice of plectrum for a gut-strung 6-course instrument. Some of the repertoire appears better with fingers, other pieces with plectrum. But what to use?

    Enzo

  23. #98
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Enzo, welcome to the Cafe and to the Classical section. I am certainly no expert on mandolino but from others I have gathered that they are often played with a feather quill plectrum. I would also imagine that fingers are proper as well. BTW who mad your instrument and how did you come to choose that type of mandolin? It might be nice to see photos, if you have some.
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  24. #99
    Registered User Alex Timmerman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Hello Enzo,

    To play the Mandolino that is strung with gut-strings you use a wooden quill.

    And more in particular a quill made of the wood of the cherry tree.

    Here you can find info about how to make such a quill: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...light=plectrum


    Best and success,

    Alex.

    PS. Here is a writing on the subject I shared with people at Facebook some time ago: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=...08523005855291
    Last edited by Alex Timmerman; May-19-2011 at 6:55pm.

  25. #100
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Ah, I stand corrected...
    Jim

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