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Thread: Classical plectrum choice

  1. #1
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    Default Classical plectrum choice

    Hey folks. I'm not certain this is really the proper section to post a pick question, but being as it seems to pertain mostly to the classical genre I thought I'd give it a shot.

    I have been eyeing up Red Bear's versions of the Neapolitan and Roman plectrums for a short while now. I am curious about the difference in technique between the two schools and am not sure which I should try first.

    I do have Mair's book and she recommends the Pettine style. I have also recently tried my hand at making a Roman plectrum, but I can't say that I understand how to properly use it. So far I don't prefer it - of course, I'm also second guessing whether or not I have it beveled enough or properly, if I'm holding it correctly etc.

    I'm mostly interested in the technique differences from someone who has tried both. I'm also curious as to how popular the two plectrum styles are in the non-bluegrass world compared the more common guitar pick shapes.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Hello, Bryon.

    As you may know, we are open-minded, non-doctrinaire folks in this little corner of the Café, so please rest assured that you haven't stepped right into a hornet's nest ;-) That said, words are poor substitutes for personal, tactile experience; we can talk all the way to infinity and back, and still not have helped you anywhere near as much as personal trial and error would.

    With all the above duly disclaimed: I have tried just about all kinds of mandolin picks— the "Neapolitan" being by far the most common. (Yet, even there, you will find several variants with significant differences between them.) Guitar picks are generally not appropriate, although some folks do use them, and to good effect. As of the last 3-4 years, I have settled on/with Roman (a.k.a. Ranieri) picks, but that may very well be because I come from a bowed-string background, or whatever other quirk in my musical upbringing. This is a minority-within-a-minority view.

    I am told —but have no personal experience, pro or con— that Red Bear's Roman picks are too thick to be of use; YMMV. I have also tried thin, Pettine picks, and did like them quite a lot, at least for a while. I had also had several picks made on Calace's specifications, and used (and liked) them for a while, too.

    In short: carve your own path. Try ALL sorts of picks! Ultimately, you alone are the final authority on what works best for you.

    Cheers,

    Victor
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Thank you Victor. I do enjoy trying out difference picks. I played guitar for many years before discovering the joy of the mandolin and oddly enough, never got into the obsession of picks until I switched over. I love Red Bears material and they are the only easy source for me of the classical style plectrums. I would probably ask for one a bit thinner however. I have gotten used to the large triangular shape over the guitar shape, but can't help but feel I'm missing out on something pick-wise. I am hoping for a bit more brightness and more control over my tremolo, hence my continuing search.

    Perhaps I should just try both styles, I suppose I will eventually anyhow. Is there some place on the web where I might find more information about the two techniques and how to do them appropriately?
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    For some instructive information on the Roman/Ranieri pick, you can start here:



    The Neapolitan pick is amply enough represented, so you should have absolutely no difficulty finding sources, outlets, references, etc.

    Good luck!

    Victor
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  5. #5

    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    I just wish to mention another "school": Fingers. I belong to that.

  6. #6
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Wise advice above. be aware that there are few trends in classical but many variants and schools of thought, esp when it comes to picks. Despite the fact that Red Bear makes one -- and I think certain folks on this section of the forums might have influenced their making -- we players of the Roman style plectra (Victor and I, for instance) are in a real minority. We classical players are in a minority anyway, but among the more prominent players only a few in Europe actually use that style of pick, notable Ralf Leenen and his group and Alex Timmerman and the member of his group Het Consort. I don't know who uses the Neapolitan style off hand but there are quite a few players who use other kinds of pick. German style players use the small jazz-shaped softer plastic picks to go with the mellow sound of their Thomastik-strung bowlbacks. I know that Carlo Aonzo uses a small jazz pick -- at one time the one one made by John Pearse's company.

    I think whatever you use depends on who you are instructed by and what works for you. Some of it depends on the type of music you play and the type of instrument you play it on.

    I have a bucket of picks and I switch off depending on what music I play. I do own a Red bear Roman pick but I don;t use it much. I either use one I made myself from ultem material or one a few organic material ones. I like the sound and feel of them in general.

    As they say YMMV. Try lots of picks and you don't even have to stick with one or the other.
    Jim

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  7. #7

    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    I either use one I made myself from ultem material... I like the sound and feel of them in general.
    All too modestly, James veils the fact that his home-made Ultem picks are actually very, VERY good: they sound good, they feel good— AND keep the endangered tortoise population intact ;-) The larger point is that, given adequate material, information, and of course patience and skill, you can make your own.

    I also do not wish to bad-mouth Red Bear, which seems to be a reputable and responsive company; what I know is second-hand, and the complaint I have heard may in fact apply only to picks they made earlier on, i.e. before they were steered in the right direction by various mandolinists. So I would not cross them off your shopping list, but perhaps (IF you choose to patronize them— I am no spokesman for the company) you should opt for the more, ah... ~slender~ models on their catalogue.

    ---

    Jim is also correct in brining the parameter of rigidity into the conversation: the players of the so called New German School use picks that are hardly extraordinary in their shape, yet truly, characteristically, deliberately extraordinary in their Gummi-Bear, rubbery softness. So you should not only experiment with various different shapes, but also degrees of hardness— to say nothing of degrees of sharpness, i.e. beveling acuity.

    Fun! :-)

    Cheers,

    Victor
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

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    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    I've recently made myself a Roman style pick that I like. I had made a couple in the past (for other people) that I was unimpressed with, and which caused me to write them off, but I learned that was because they were -for me- too thin. Still, I had seen Ralf's video on how to play with one, and thought it looked fairly intuitive. Well, a thicker one worked a whole lot better, and I can play with it much more easily than with a shorter narrow-pointy pick (like a Pettine style). It is of 2.4mm thick ivory, but the bevels are very smooth and gradual and about 3/16" wide all around, so the edges are much more delicate than you'd think. Bear in mind that in general compared with classical players, I like my picks thicker and more rigid than many people do, and I play most often on flatback mandolas. But it has been a very intriguing experience. I find the pick surprisingly easy to control and play with precision, especially on string crossings. I don't use it all the time, by any means, but it's nice to have an additional tool to experiment with that works for me.

    bratsche
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    In fact, I have bratsche to thank for her erstwhile simile of the pick as a "mini-bow". Somehow, that made ALL the sense in the world to me, especially as I tried to figure out what to do with the longer, Roman pick. But, as above, YMMV.

    Cheers,

    Victor
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  10. #10
    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Hmmm... yes, I remember saying that, Victor... for me, it mainly applied when I used my infamous 3-finger hold with the middle finger across from the thumb, which I've since abandoned on regular style picks. It was a major re-training to achieve any degree of nimbleness and accuracy using just the index finger and thumb, but now that's pretty much all I use, as I find that it is better for my endurance. Odd, but with a two-finger hold, I don't think I'd ever have come up with the "mini-bow" analogy at all.

    Analysis time again... okay, with the Roman style pick, I find my middle finger only occasionally plays a supportive role (for me), underneath the pick, but not always. It's still more of a role than it usually has anymore with the triangle picks I use otherwise. But still not "bow-like" enough for me to make that connection there, either.

    Just curious, now, do you play the bass with a French or a German bow, Victor?

    bratsche
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Thanks for the replies. I like the idea of a pick being more bow-like, are either of the two classical styles generally more expressive than the other? I would imagine it depends more on how one uses it and their experience.

    I have asked Alison Stephens and Avi Avital about their pick choices and was surprised to hear of their using a more traditional pick. Well, Miss Stephens sounded like she's gone back and forth quite a bit, but she more or less like the smaller shaped picks. Avi mentioned that he preferred a thinner Dunlop. I am led to believe that the longer picks tend to allow more tonal variations and a faster and more controlled tremolo, but is this gospel or just tradition? Is the Pettine shape inherently any less dynamic than the Reineri shape? I seem to come across more information on the Reineri style on the internet, but maybe I'm looking in the wrong places!

    I am hoping to try making another Roman pick soon, my last one isn't very symmetrical and the edges definitely need more buffing and smoothing. The material I have is also about 3.1 mm thick, so I'll have to figure out how to thin that down some as well. I sincerely appreciate the replies so far.
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Byron: what material are you using for your pick?
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    I'm not really sure on the material. It was something I picked up from work - it was used for some signs that hung from the ceiling in the store. There was an extra panel that had sat unused for years that I was able to salvage. It's pretty hard, it takes a lot of sanding to remove a little. I did the basic shape on a bandsaw and took an orbital sander to the edges. I need to see if my wife has any nail files lying around! I made another one sometime last year, but the plastic was so soft I could see it fall away while I was playing. I have a good bit of this new stuff, maybe a 6" x 24" panel or so. It's white, so nothing pretty or fancy here. It has a very dull sound when dropped, not the nice click of the better materials, but it might be nice for experimenting.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    By way of two-in-one replies:

    Bratsche, I play the so-called "German" bow, as my bass lineage hails from (mostly) German-speaking Central Europe, namely: Vaclav Hause (b. 1764) — Josef Hrabe (of Etudes fame, at least among bass players)— Franz Simandl (the author of the Method that was mother's milk to me, and to thousands of others)— Ludwig Emanuel Manoly — Hermann Reinshagen (at Juilliard, in New York) — Frederick Zimmermann — David Walter — Me ;-)

    Obviously, the "ethnic" designation is misleading, as many of those luminaries of yesteryear were Czechs, Bohemians, Hungarians, etc. The German-vs-French bow polemic has also done much, IMHO, to hamper real, substantive advances in technique. In fact, I'd much rather have the two bows renamed "Dragonetti bow" (under-hand, gamba-like, i.e. "German") and "Bottesini bow" (above-hand, cello-like, i.e. "French").

    Without ANY claim of "superiority", however, it is simply an anatomical fact that the middle- and ring-fingers play a more active role on "German" bow, since the stick is held up by the index and middle fingers, while the "tilt" of the bow is steered by the ring-finger; on "French" bow, those fingers are crucial to the balance of the bow, but (to my knowledge and understanding) less "active" in the motions of the the bow, in the "steering" of the bow from frog to tip.

    ---

    No, Bryon, there is absolutely no reason to believe that either pick is more "expressive"; that is an artistic quality, not a mechanical one. Ditto, on bows. My $0.02 worth is: do what works best for you; master the mechanics; sing your heart out! ;-)

    Cheers,

    Victor
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  15. #15

    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    This summer I found a feather when I was in the mountains here in Norway, probably from a big majestic bird called "Lom". I tried it as a plectrum (of course) and actually it worked really well on my gut-strung mandolin. Really good balance, strong and clear sound... Recommended!

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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Dear Simen
    I have a big feather that I found on a lake after a storm, it came from a swan.
    I would like to use it on my Nylgut strung mandolino, but I suppose that I have to have it shaped and I do not know how. Would you show me a photo of the point of the feather that you have mentioned, so that I can use it on my mandolino?
    Thanks
    Kasper

  17. #17

    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Well, of course I was not the one to invent the feather-plectrum. The eagle feather is the traditional choice for the Oud, and I'm sure my feather would feel quite ashamed next to the real feather-plectrums of the oud-masters. But here are some pictures that you can use:

    http://zalzalya.multiply.com/photos/album/15/

    And then everyone could learn something from this man. Keep listening, and you will at the end hear a famous tune done in a very special way:



    According to the info I found, he uses an eagle-plectrum. But I think those are not legal for ordinary players. But hommade swan and "lom" plectrums sure must be ok!

  18. #18

    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    an oud pick (risha) works for me - you can make a lovely syncopated, "teeter-totter" like sound with it:


  19. #19

    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    This is such great playing! I never get tired of listening to this one.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryon Winger View Post

    I am curious about the difference in technique between the two schools and am not sure which I should try first.

    I have also recently tried my hand at making a Roman plectrum, but I can't say that I understand how to properly use it. So far I don't prefer it - of course, I'm also second guessing whether or not I have it beveled enough or properly, if I'm holding it correctly etc.
    I also made myself Roman plectra from different material: celluloid, plastic, old tortoise shell, horn. Each material has its own character. Besides the properties of material (f.i. elasticity, hardness) the shape makes difference in sound as well: if the points are sharp, how thick they are, how they are going from thick to thin etc. Mostly I made Ranieri models. Recently I made also a smaller, Roman model, as taken for Embergher mandolins in the past.

    I can compare it with bowed playing: like it is very important how the bow is made: material, shape, it is also with the plectrum: you hear difference in sound. And the way you hold it and use it, means maybe even more.

    Playing a Roman plectrum gives me lots of things to discover.
    The long shape, the part of the plectrum that sticks above your hand, moves and reacts on the part that touches the strings. The way of holding it - lose or strongly, means difference in sound.
    This way you are able to choose and being conscious what sound you want and what you can do in order to get this sound. The fingers of the right hand, that do not hold the plectrum, have their function in hanging and having weight. It is rather difficult to explain this in English for me, I hope you understand what I mean. I study this by trying and to look very well at people who use this technique. These are teachers and examples for me and I am so lucky to live in the same country. Alex talks from this technique from time to time her on cafe. Maybe looking to videos is also helpful for you. Here are some examples where you can see the technique well.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JUSrxvg6cAhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zVqVuZeS20

    Of course is experimenting, trying very important. It is already nice to discover that there is so much possible and to refine and expand technique and get better result.

    Margriet

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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Well, I was able to better refine the most recent Roman pick of mine. I brought the thickness down to about 2.4 mm and spent much more time beveling the edge to what seemed more appropriate. It certainly sounds better with a smoother edge, but I imagined it would. I'm not sure I'll end up using it a whole lot though, I still seem to prefer the tone I get better with my Red Bear large triangle. The tone with this Roman pick is thinner without adding too much more treble, whereas the Red Bear is has a very full tone, not overly warm and not lacking in brightness (although I could use a little more). Its not dark like some of the cheaper versions that I've tried. I don't know if its more in the material or the bevel, but the Red Bear is very smooth and I mostly like the tone as is.

    I may still go with a Pettine style and see if the narrower tip is more to my liking. I'm beginning to think that I *want* to like a Roman pick for some reason. I will continue to try the pick I made and see if I begin to like it more as I become comfortable with it. I am pretty certain that a different material (and thinner) would be more to my liking versus what I've made so far. On the other hand, it might just not be the plectrum shape for me either. Time will tell.

    Oh and thanks for the links and videos, I'll be sure to check them out when I get the chance. And Margriet, I understood your English just fine!
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  22. #22
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    I am not expert on the Roman style, but I know someone who is. I think that the key is the bevel and the quality of the point. I showed him one of mine and he said that one point was quite nice whereas the other was not there. This is a much thinner lone that yours however by at least half. I tried making a thicker plectrum from this same Ultem plastic but with much less success.

    There is no real reason to have to like the Roman pick -- it is only as good as the music can make from it. As noted, there are plenty of players who do not use that style of pick and who are excellent players.
    Jim

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  23. #23
    Registered User Margriet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryon Winger View Post
    I'm beginning to think that I *want* to like a Roman pick for some reason. I will continue to try the pick I made and see if I begin to like it more as I become comfortable with it. I am pretty certain that a different material (and thinner) would be more to my liking versus what I've made so far. On the other hand, it might just not be the plectrum shape for me either. Time will tell.
    Bryon: you say: "time will tell." I would add: " experimenting and studying" and "trial and error".
    There are so many factors that influence your tone, that it is a study to find out how you can get the sound and effects you like. Your ears know, certainly.....
    I see you do not want to drop immediately a kind of plectrum before you take another, if you want to make a choice, you want to know the properties well and the possibilities it gives you. I am not sure that your Roman plectrum will sound more warm and full, when you make it of different material and make it thinner. My experience so far (but I am a beginner!) is that a too thin plectrum makes thinner sound. If I take a thicker plectrum, but in Roman style, it has a fuller tone and the lightness and brightness come with the moving.
    As I said before: there is a lot to discover. I want to know everything about, to be able to make good choices. So I am experimenting and studying. And in order to NOT be the inventor of the wheel again and to make useless errors while trying, I profit of the experience and knowledge of others.
    Wish you good search ! The process itself is interesting and worth.

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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Oh I don't think I'm really set on NEEDING to like the Roman pick, I think I just set my expectations higher than I should have. I think in my head I generally associate the larger thick triangles with bluegrass - nothing against the genre per se, but I usually don't think of it as extremely dynamic when compared to classical music. Hence my false reasoning that the longer twin tipped Roman pick surely must be inherently more dynamic and expressive than the bluegrass counterpart. I see that I'm probably very wrong here. I think that mental "image" of what works where is the basis of my confusion.
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    Registered User Margriet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical plectrum choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryon Winger View Post
    Hence my false reasoning that the longer twin tipped Roman pick surely must be inherently more dynamic and expressive than the bluegrass counterpart. I see that I'm probably very wrong here. I think that mental "image" of what works where is the basis of my confusion.
    Maybe.....maybe you are not wrong. The more reason to try and examine. As said before: there is not only the thickness that matters: also the shape, the size, the kind of material, the technique of playing. I hope, there are more people coming to share their experiences. Or people who know threads on cafe about this item that are still to be seen. Sometimes I tried to enter an old thread and I did not manage, because it was too old and "forbidden area".
    I have no experience with bluegrass picks.

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