Bill Monroe's Poor Technique

[JonZ]

I have begun to suspect that implicit in some current learning materials is "Don't do this, even though Bill Monroe did it." For example: don't use down picking on eighth notes, even though Bill Monroe did it.

It seems like the authors make a particular point of telling us not to do certain things, because they know that so many people want to emulate BM, even though those author's don't come right out and say, "Don't do what Bill Monroe did."

Is my suspicion correct?

What are all of the things that BM did that are generally considered "poor technique" for the modern mandolinist?

[journeybear]

Blasphemy!

Perhaps what such an author meant was "Don't do this, even though Bill Monroe did it, because he was so amazingly talented that he was able to flout conventional practices and succeed where you, puny human, are doomed to fail." Or something like that.

OK, now I'm done venting (for now), maybe these authors are referring to some unorthodox techniques that were the results of years or experience, and suggest that beginners adopt a more methodical approach until they achieve that level of expertise. I prefer the old more-than-one-way-to-skin-a-cat-or-pick-a-mandolin approach, AKA the Whatever Works, Works Theory (AKA the WWW Theory). I mean, emulation is all good and well, but ultimately it is up to the player to figure out how to play, and developing a natural technique will be most beneficial. That is, natural to the player, naturally different for each one.

[AlanN]

Invalid question. Need to look at end result. From the sports world:

Hal Greer shot his free throws as a little jumper.
Wilt The Stilt threw underhanded (granted, he stunk at the foul line, but overall...)
Tom Dempsey kicked a 63 yrd field goal with half a foot
Joe Morgan flapped his arm at bat

But, if I were to choose one aspect of Bill's technique to answer the question, it would be...hmmmm....can't right think of one.

[Scott Tichenor]

I have begun to suspect that implicit in some current learning materials is "Don't do this, even though Bill Monroe did it." For example: don't use down picking on eighth notes, even though Bill Monroe did it.

It seems like the authors make a particular point of telling us not to do certain things, because they know that so many people want to emulate BM, even though those author's don't come right out and say, "Don't do what Bill Monroe did."

Is my suspicion correct?

What are all of the things that BM did that are generally considered "poor technique" for the modern mandolinist?

Oh, brother...

I think as curator of this forum I've earned the right to point out the title you've added has the tact of being a guest at a wedding and yelling at the top of your lungs, "boy, this punch tastes like ####!"

Carry on.

[Fred Keller]

I would--in a spirit of rationality and community--cast your question not in terms of technique but rather artistic choice.

By virtually every accepted definition of "good technique"--that is to say, the mechanics of holding the pick, the neck, fretting and picking the strings--Bill's technique was in the range of excellent-to-superb. I direct you to any number of youtube videos where Bill's technique is on display.

I've come to understand good technique as: great economy of motion, loose-wrist-picking movement (vs chugging your whole arm), loose pick grip (vs. holding it in a death), perpendicular attack (vs. angled to the strings), fingers-near-the-fretboard, and everything-under-complete-control. I argue that by these generally accepted standards of good technique Bill's is amazingly good. Sure there are deviations, sure some people can play crazy stuff by posting pinkies, etc., but this is what I consider to be the bell of the bell curve of "good technique."

His enviable technique enabled him to make and execute artistic choices that are not for the faint of heart. Picking all down-strokes on 1/8th notes is only one such choice. He used downstrokes for particular reasons and to convey particular emotions and feelings. One may not enjoy or like or be able to appreciate his sound--his choices--but I believe it's very difficult to argue that he displayed poor technique...if one defines technique as I have above.

Now perhaps you meant a different kind of technique. In which case we should get our definitions all cleared up

[MikeEdgerton]

I seem to recall a David Letterman show where Steve Earle played Copperhead Road and made the remark that nobody could tell him he was playing the mandolin wrong because he wrote the song. Monroe invented the genre.

[grassrootphilosopher]

Oh, brother...

I think as curator of this forum I've earned the right to point out the title you've added has the tact of being a guest at a wedding and yelling at the top of your lungs, "boy, this punch tastes like ####!"

Carry on.

While Scott got reason to contemplate about the header - this brought you to comment, right (?) - the original post brings up a question that is asked from time to time in ever so many variations.

To maybe rephrase the initial idea: Is there a hint to something in Bill Monroe's playing technique that could be regarded as unorthodox or even flawed?

While certainly there are many points in the father of bluegrass´ technique that have not been previously incorporated in mandolin playing (closed four fingered "bluegrass"-G-chords?) there can be no doubt about it that nowadays these techniques are considered common ground.

There is discussion though that over the years Bill Monroe lacked timing. Be this true or not, I find that an octogenarian playing with as much taste, speed and power must be thouroughly acknowledged.

Also there is not one singular Bill Monroe mandolin technique to my knowledge. The 1930ies Bill Monroe played a different technique on his vintage F-7 than the early 1940ies Monroe with his early incarnation of Blue Grass Boys. Neither did that Monroe play the same technique as the "classic" 1946-1948 Monroe who then changed quite a bit in the 1950ies with the Jimmy Martin outfit or even to the leader of citybillies Rowan, Grier, Greene (along with J. Monroe) up to the vernerable "slick" Monroe style of the late 70ies or the broadbrush octogenerian Monroe style.

I think it is imperative to focus on specifics in the technique to determine if they may be regarded as unorthodox, flawed or maybe just unusual.

If you browse through the threads a number of techniques with major mandolin heroes are discussed. An interesting thread was on the Mike Compton mandolin grip. While I could care less on anybody´s opinion wether a certain way of doing something is "proper" or not it is interesting to sometimes persue a path if only for education´s sake.

If you could elaborate on specific Monroe techniques that seem to be unorthodox to say the least I would be more than interested.

[Ivyguitar]

Also there is not one singular Bill Monroe mandolin technique to my knowledge. .

This is a good point. Monroe's playing on the early Monroe Brothers shows that he had prety well mastered the "down/up" style that is popular with teachers and players today. In fact, he played about as clean and fast as anybody ever played.

[Darren Bailey]

Oh to be that poor!

[Glassweb]

oh to be that poor!

amen

[AlanN]

Another thing:

There's a reason all of the 2nd generation cats sat at the foot of the stage, tape recorders in hand, when Big Mon performed. They wanted to learn first-hand the technique coming from that guy. There was no 'Well, he's good, but he has sloppy technique that I can improve on.' He was the man - lock, stock and barrel.

Caption for what is going through Duffey's mind: "Now what's he doing?"

[Brad Nicholas]

I have heard some folks call Monroe's playing "sloppy." I'll echo Ivyguitar that anyone who has listened Monroe's early clean and blazingly fast work with Charlie or Lester and Earl would be hard pressed to come to that conclusion. Later on, he hit extra strings because that was the sound he wanted. Heck, even his clean playing had more character than most speedster modern players. I don't know why having every note with the same volume and tone is viewed as a plus. I like a little gallop in my fast passages.

[Jim Garber]

For example: don't use down picking on eighth notes, even though Bill Monroe did it.

Since when is that bad technique? I know others have said it already, but, from what I understand, it is more a choice than a hard and fast rule. In fact, I believe that a lot of jazz guitarists use hard and fast downpicking for certain effects.

By the time I saw Monroe play he was certainly not the cleanest picker esp when compared to the more modern-sounding newgrassers, but his music was his own and certainly had that soul and punch.

[Brad Nicholas]

Oh, and go ahead and play those blues passages up-down-up-down and don't get too close to the bridge.

In all seriousness though, judging by a lot of players, folks seem intent on turning all mandolin solos into a perfectly smooth stream of single notes at breakneck speed with no rests. It's really popular so someone must like it. That someone isn't me though.

[Skip Kelley]

I would love to play with such "poor" technique as Big Mon!!!

[Alex Orr]

I've actually seem numerous materials that specifically recommend playing down-stroke eighth notes to get the hard-edged bluesy sound that Bill got. Wouldn't telling someone to avoid that be akin to telling someone that DUDU picking is a far more effective way to play Chuck Berry double-stop riffs?

That being said, there is a lot of recorded Bill Monroe stuff out there, and sometimes it can come across as a bit messy. The guy was human. Sometimes on a fast fiddle tune he'd hit a couple of dead notes or perhaps pull off too quickly and choke a note prematurely - it happens, even to the masters - and make no mistake, Bill was a master musician.

[JonZ]

Scott--Irony, like a martini, is best served dry.

I think it goes without saying at Mandolin Café that Bill is one of the greats. There are plenty of other great players who use what most would consider unorthodox techniques--Jesse McReynolds, Sam Bush--I was just curious as to what techniques Bill used that are now commonly discouraged.

Grassroots--I don't have a list of Monroe techniques that are unorthodox, I was curious if anyone else does.

[Geiss]

I noticed something interesting when learning Southern Flavor.
Up/down has one distinct feeling and down/down has an entirely different feel.
Pick one tune and play eight notes in both styles and just make some observations and plug those observations into wherever you are at in terms of your development and style. It's the awareness that's important, the rest is just dogma.

To my ears, yes Monroe could at times be a "stringbanger" but that he did not have the sanitary runs of
a Thile or Sierra does not detract from the pleasure of listening to Monroe. His melodic ideas stick with me much more than his technique.

All of this from a player just learning.....so YMMV

[allenhopkins]

Well, he scratched his mandolin all up, broke a curl off the headstock, carried it around for years and then lost it, and gouged the "Gibson" inlay out when he got upset with the company. We proper mandolinists frown on such antics, don't we?

I think a set of quotation marks around the "poor" in the thread title would have assuaged Scott T's wrath...

Lots of techniques are at the player's option, and those who choose others may find those techniques a "poor fit" for the way they like to play. Perhaps a classical mandolinist would shudder at Monroe's approach to certain tunes. Monroe set his mandolin up with very high action, and played aggressively; these variables may lead to notes not sounding "crystal clear." There were times when he rushed tempos -- I've seen him do that "live" -- perhaps to add energy to an already-speedy song.

The last time I saw him was just about two years before he died, I guess, outdoors in Rochester. I had heard all the comments of how his technique and musicianship were suffering as he entered his eighties. When he asked for requests, I yelled out "Roanoke" (a tune I love and will never be able to play adequately). He accepted the suggestion, and proceeded to flat out NAIL that tune. Coulda been 1955, for all his "technique had suffered." Took away a memory I'll always cherish.

[sgarrity]

Bad Monroe technique? I'm not aware of any.

Let's see, he had:

Loose right wrist
Economy of motion
Consistent tone
Power and volume
Speed and clarity when needed

Nope, can't think of a single one!

Remember Monroe was an artist in the truest sense of the word. He wasn't trying to win some kind of contest. He was playing the music the way he heard and felt it.

[Nelson Peddycoart]

JonZ,

You are off the Christmas card list (and you know Christmas Time's A'Coming)!

[Roger Kunkel]

The best technique would be to profoundly impact the history of American music and spawn thousands (millions?) of mandolin imitators.

[JonZ]

JonZ,

You are off the Christmas card list (and you know Christmas Time's A'Coming)!

Dang, I was hoping for a '23 Gibson A!!!!

[JonZ]

By the way, my current repertoire goal is to learn several Monroe tunes. I'm no hater!

[hank]

To study Bill Monroe's music and mandolin techniques is a step beyond learning basic mandolin playing and general guidelines developed to help the new student. In almost every case the general rule or guideline can and perhaps should be broken to accomplish the desired effect. I don't know much about classical mandolin and it's study but I would imagine it is more regimented to accommodate the large number of musicians playing together as one and subject to more technique criticism.