Playing for tips

[Tim2723]

Can someone please clarify something for me? A couple of time here, and in several similar past discussions, it's been mentioned that a band charges more if they have to provide a sound system. What does that mean? Do you mean you're paying an extra person (the sound tech), or are you renting gear and have an extra expense? I've never encountered that personally. I've played where sound is provided and gotten paid my full rate, by which I mean the venue didn't say "We pay less because we provide the sound". But I almost always have to bring the PA and don't get to charge extra because of it. It would be like my mechanic saying he'll fix my car for $500, but if he has to use tools his fee is $600. Maybe that's another regional thing or something, but I don't get it.

[journeybear]

Change the band name to "tip the band"

My tip bucket's name is Phil - "Phil The Tip Bucket!"

[Jim]

Tim , for me it's a time and effort thing. Do I need to show up 2 hours early to haul all the stuff in and hook it up or just a half hour early for a sound check and if I don't have to pack it out thats a big one for me. Of course their PA may suck and I'd rather play through mine than some bars broken one even if I have to pack in /out. But in a known venue with a good sound system & maybe a guy to work it that's alot less work for me and I'd do it for less money. My motorcycle mechanic charges less if I take the motor out first too.

[allenhopkins]

Can someone please clarify something for me? A couple of time here, and in several similar past discussions, it's been mentioned that a band charges more if they have to provide a sound system. What does that mean? Do you mean you're paying an extra person (the sound tech), or are you renting gear and have an extra expense? I've never encountered that personally. I've played where sound is provided and gotten paid my full rate, by which I mean the venue didn't say "We pay less because we provide the sound". But I almost always have to bring the PA and don't get to charge extra because of it...

Well, if I have to bring a full sound system to a job, it adds minimum one hour of car loading, set-up, take-down, and car unloading to the time I spend on the gig, so I usually charge a bit more for those jobs if I can. For most of the seniors' jobs I do (about 75 per year) I bring a small battery-powered Fender Amp Can with a couple of inexpensive mics, a set-up that takes five minutes, so I keep those prices pretty low. I don't make a big deal out of it, and if I bring other musicians along, we split the take evenly even though I'm the one with the PA. Not everyone I know does this; there are musicians who take a bigger "cut" of the money if they bring sound.

Actually, it would be more like the mechanic saying that he'll fix your car for $500 if you supply the tools, but $600 if he has to supply them. I am a firm believer in one person owning and supplying the sound system, rather than having a PA that the group owns "in common," but I know there are different approaches to this.

[Tim Bowen]

We musicians, artists, and writers have a gift from God that we should share with the world at our own expense, simply because it's just so beautiful, as opposed to the gifts afforded plumbers, dentists, real estate associates, digital communications specialists, customer service representatives, waitresses, and legal attorneys, which are occupations that most of society would agree has more intrinsic value, or at least that's how they act about it. And yet, society at large wants to be entertained, and they want quality musical education for their children. Somebody's gotta pay the piper.

Business is business. Every business does the math. Every business determines guidelines and stipulations.

Well, if you want to make those comparisons, THAT'S a slippery slope. I can pretty much guarantee you that if given a choice between hearing live music and having working indoor plumbing, pretty much 100% of the population in any given town will take the plumbing. Lawyers? Well, there are better jokes there than any about banjos.

The big picture is this: There are fewer venues that want live music than there are performers wanting to play at them. Restaurants are, for the most part, either on the way up or the way down. A special few have lasted and stood the test of time, economic conditions, personnel changes, etc. The rest are either hiring and promoting, or losing their good cooks, waitstaff, etc, to the restaurants/bars on the way up. Those going down aren't worth attempting to play at. Those going up at least might pay you a minimum of something respectable. That's it.

Want more money? Get a booking agent to get you gigs all over the area first, then the country. They're going to take a minimum of 15%, so you'll need to make sure you play well enough to demand a guarantee that will not only make it worth the booking agent's time, but also cover expenses. If you're good enough, the venue will cover hotels, and one meal, but no travel and no breakfast or lunch. So, if you make $2000 with your band for a night, the agent is going to take $300. Much less than that and he won't have the time to deal with you as you'll cost him more money in time than your worth as an asset. That leaves $1700 for the guys. Car, meals, hotel rooms for those nights you don't have a gig, and you're barely breaking even. That means you have to make more. A guarantee of $4000? Well, the number of places you can play at just shrank dramatically, so you're chasing an illusion. You'll work fewer nights, so you'll have higher expenses. You can play for a little bit less on off-nights at places that can't afford the full freight, but you can't do that too much, or you'll dilute your brand. Why would I pay someone 5K when folks can travel around, catch them on a Thursday for what half of what I need to charge? Fast way to kill a career.

In the final analysis, you better do what you do for the love, as precious few make big bucks over a long haul, and that applies to far more professions than you may think. Love makes the world go round, baby.

You make some good points, but brother, you are preaching to the choir. I don't mean that in a pretentious way, it's just that every single thing you have mentioned, I have, for better or worse, dealt with.

Booking agents? Check. Done.

All the travel/expense stipulations that you mentioned? Check. Done. Many times over. During the 80's and early 90's, I owned seven suits and two tuxedos, and typically got paid no less than $400.00 for a local "casual". Those gigs aren't as easily had anymore. As job descriptions go, the working musician in the trenches is one of few occupations that have not only not had a cost of living increase, they've taken a beating. Rates for independent contractor music teachers have mostly moved with the times, but not so for the live performer.

Sure, plumbing and food procurement will take precedence over entertainment. I can tell you that as recently presented with a prospective $3,000 plumbing estimate for a "fix", I declined. Can't afford it.

You're absolutely right, you have to pick your battles. I have a certain rotation of venues within a circuit that are do-able, as far as what works for me and the math of my expense to profit ratio. That's business. I haven't played a full band gig in nearly three years now. There's no point in it currently, as I'd lose my ass financially. I can book the duo and make a profit every time.

In the final analysis, you better do what you do for the love, as precious few make big bucks over a long haul, and that applies to far more professions than you may think. Love makes the world go round, baby.

Love may make the world go 'round, baby, but for the small independent business contractor, policy and hardline stance pay the bills, keep the lights on, and put food in the fridge. I've planted trees for a living, worked as a steak cook, worked in the veterinary field, worked within the carpet/textile industry. I hauled in obscene paychecks and perks over the years that I worked within the corporate environment of graphic arts and advertising; you're absolutely correct, you don't walk away from THAT sort of security and take THAT kind of financial hit to go play and teach music - unless you truly love it.

[Loretta Callahan]

For what it's worth, I'm a professional "appreciator". I never, don't tip and/or buy a CD from a live performer at a club or cafe. The sooner you put those tips in the can to prime the pump, the better.

[Fretless]

I've done my share of playing "ringer" for friends and yes, I've even strolled through a bar with the tip jar and some cute quips. And, Like Loretta, I'm also a "professional appreciator."

When my sweetie and his band play out I bring a customized tip jar; I put a teeny battery-powered light at the bottom and cover it with some colored marbles. It gives off a soft glow that catches the eye but isn't distracting. There's a "Tips, Thank You!" sign at the top. Works well, as does payback from those friends I mentioned above

I modified it for a gig the week before Halloween by switching to a black light covered with uv-reactive spider web stuff, did the sign on orange paper and put a little bowl of treats next to it. Okay, I'm a geek but the four of us went home with about $24 each from that jar.

Yeah, it's silly, but when combined with friendly banter, good eye contact and high energy it helps fill the jar. I have to confess, though, that for me, it's more about connecting with the audience than money: I get this amazing rush when... well, I'll save it for a more appropriate thread.

As Catmandu2 and journeybear pointed out, customers don't know where the night's pay comes from and need to be clued in. Spot on. At a couple of pubs in our little town the bar owners do make an announcement and one even walks around with the jar. It couldn't hurt to ask management for some support when you get booked. But since it's up to us most of the time, I agree that a tasteful pitch (and hearty "thank you's") is probably the best...tip.

Or maybe just offer to fetch their cars or shine their shoes...

Fretless

[Matt DeBlass]

Fretless, what you're doing is a noble calling in and of itself. Actually at some of the "genre" events I've played at (Renaissance Fair, Steampunk Convention) some performers have a designated "Hat", that is, someone to pass the hat for them during and after the performance. It helps a lot.
For what it's worth, in the Celtic music field one of the most successful full-time musicians I know plays Ren Fairs. It's a lot of time on the road and in funny outfits, but she does OK and has low overhead.

I think the comparison of "playing for fun" and "playing for a living" is like the difference between going fishing on the weekend and working on a tuna boat (albeit with a slightly smaller risk of drowning).

[Charlieshafer]

You make some good points, but brother, you are preaching to the choir. I don't mean that in a pretentious way, it's just that every single thing you have mentioned, I have, for better or worse, dealt with.

I hauled in obscene paychecks and perks over the years that I worked within the corporate environment of graphic arts and advertising; you're absolutely correct, you don't walk away from THAT sort of security and take THAT kind of financial hit to go play and teach music - unless you truly love it.

HA! I knew it! The one thing we all have in common was the ability to make fundamentally unsound career choices!!

[mandocrucian]

Can someone please clarify something for me? A couple of time here, and in several similar past discussions, it's been mentioned that a band charges more if they have to provide a sound system.

It would be like my mechanic saying he'll fix my car for $500, but if he has to use tools his fee is $600. Maybe that's another regional thing or something, but I don't get it.

There are "sonic wallpaper" gigs - corporate functions, etc. where the duo, trio or band is there more for the visual ambience than for any actual music they produce. Fine, we'll stand in an alcove, or wherever you want and play our mando, guitar, flute, violin, and/or electronic keyboard etc. We bring instruments and play. BUT if you want us to provide sound reinforcement and lug the gear around and spend extra time setting up and tearing down, it's going to cost more to reimburse us for the extra hassle and time, and probable use of the sound system when some suit wants to make a speech etc.

You can look at it from a $ per hour perspective. Do a duo stroller for 90 mins, in and out quickly.....$200. (approx $50/man per hour) Now, Sound system, which ends up adding a couple hours (at least) extra -you've gotta to include the time loading the gear into the vehicles from the house, and then taking it all out again when you get home... you'd be a retard to work over twice as long for the same amount of $ ($20/hour per man, if that.) Drive time/distance also needs to be factored in as well, otherwise you'll be working for less than you'd be being a greeter at Wal-Mart.

Some events, or clubs have a "sound system" (or what they think is a sound system). Fine, if you want to pay less, we'll use your setup, but if the sound is awful, that's YOUR fault, not ours. I don't care.

Actually, if one were to factor in all the hidden expenses - wear/maintanence on the vehicles, instruments, gear, repairwork, cost of any stage wear, phone, etc. etc., you'd find that you are only breaking even a lot of the time.

[journeybear]

Welcome to the Café, Fretless! Some good tips there about dressing up the tip jar. Any way you can make your presentation - even the tipping aspect - a fun experience for the audience the better. People respond favorably to goodwill.

Hmm ... any chance you guys might relocate, maybe to some warm sunny clime like the Keys? Could use a talented marketing specialist here ...

[John Rosett]

I think the comparison of "playing for fun" and "playing for a living" is like the difference between going fishing on the weekend and working on a tuna boat

I see that you know some of the guys I play with....

[journeybear]

Tuna boats in Montana? Not since the Cretaceous Period!

[John Rosett]

Are you kidding? That was the name of our old band van.

[slimey]

What is interesting is in a lot of ways we, musicians, have caused our own problems. So many people are willing to play for free or for tips, this has created an attitude where venues think they're doing you a favour to let you play at their place.
I'm lucky that I live in an area where we can still demand decent payment for a nights work, friends in a nearby " big " city faint when I tell them how much we charge for gigs. They're pretty much of the opinion they couldn't get the same because of the competition.
So..... if we stop under charging or filling the venues for free, maybe we wouldn't have to worry about prying money out of peoples pockets for a tip jar.

[John Rosett]

Slimey, I agree with you in principal, but the sad fact is that everybody who has a guitar, has sung karaoke, watched american idol, etc, etc, wants to be a rock star. They'll work for nothing, and many venues don't really care about the quality of the music, as long as people are buying drinks and/or food.
I can tell you that where I live, the competition for even the "tips only" gigs is fierce. Anytime a restaurant/brewery/bar starts having live music, their calendar fills up in an instant. My choice is either get in there and try to get people to tip, or sit home. I do have several gigs each month that pay $100 per person, but not enough, so I try to make opportunities for myself(something I've mentioned in this thread several times, but no one seems to have read).
When I lived in Seattle, I was a card carrying member of the AFM, and it did me no good at all. We all talk about some kind of organization, but as long as music is not seen as a "real" proffession by the general public, it will be like this. Maybe we need to start glamorizing other jobs. I can see it now: America's next top plumber!

[journeybear]

Well, there is ONE way this could work - if EVERY musician refused to work for less than a reasonable fee. And I do mean 100% participation, so that owners, managers, booking agents, etc would have no alternative.

Unfortunately, there IS an alternative: recorded music, in the form of CDs, radio, jukeboxes, etc. And people who wanted music in their place would just tell musicians they can take a hike, and pop a CD into the player.

Oh well ...

[Willie Poole]

I charge a flat fee no matter who supplies the sound system, I tell clients that our quality of music depends on a good sound system and I have a state of the art system and know how to operate it and get the sound that I like, if I were to use theirs it would take a while to get it set up and operating correctly....As far as expenses, I have a van like vehicle and I haul the equipment and musicians unless it it closer to where they live and then they can drive themselves....I have a four piece band and I split the money five ways to make up for the time I have to use to load and unload the eqipment plus the expenses of purchasing it and maintaining it....I tell this to the band members when they first come aboard and if they agree to it fine, if not they work for someone else, I do pay them at least $75 when the gigs don`t pay much so sometimes I take a lesser cut, I don`t book many gigs that don`t pay at least 400 bucks....Of course that could vary with a lot of you that live in an area with lesser or higher cost of living....The ONLY time we do a freebie is when we are showcasing the band or doing an audition, I usually send a demo CD and resume instead of doing an audition....

[rico mando]

i remember back in the mid eighties when Karaoke hit the scene. i figured then that this was the beginning of the end for live music. i was still learning my chops so i was not playing gigs then and can't compare what it was like before and after. i guess if your business is having hard times the first to go would be the music budget.

[stratman62]

karaoke and DJ's

[Maxwellt]

I remember, back in the late 1970s, one of my professors, a violist, stated that he didn't open his case for less than $25.00. That was a reasonable fee for a short gig in those days. I did some math a few years ago, and came to the conclusion that I don't open my case for less than a $50.00 net loss. But I never play for free. As far as tips go, I've seen the bandstand requests be handled very well, and I've seen them fail terribly. Humor does seem to help.
Since we did branch off onto the subject of teaching lessons earlier, one of my other professors, a cellist, gave me sound advice on keeping lesson prices up to date with inflation: he said a 30 minute lesson should cost about twice the price of a haircut. His idea was that we are providing a service, and should be compensated like anyone else. Of course, every few years I have to ask my friends the going rate for a haircut...

[Mattg]

What is interesting is in a lot of ways we, musicians, have caused our own problems. So many people are willing to play for free or for tips, this has created an attitude where venues think they're doing you a favour to let you play at their place.
......
So..... if we stop under charging or filling the venues for free, maybe we wouldn't have to worry about prying money out of peoples pockets for a tip jar.

Seems logical.

There are some interesting questions here. Example, I went to one of my favorite Italian places the other day and they had a jazz musician playing for tips. I enjoyed it OK but I did not go to listen to him. I went the that place because the food is great and the place is always packed because of it. I tipped him $5 just cause that's what I do. Hardly anyone else tipped him. Fact was, the owners didn't need him for business and, frankly, he was not a main attraction. Just because he played, is he entitled to tips from everyone?

I almost always tip the musician in an establishment and very often when they are busking. I've even taught my kids to tip musicians. Sometimes I can't tip though. I use my debt card or my Amex (for rewards) for most purchases so I don't always have cash on me. Even the smallest establishments take plastic. Like it or not there are more and more folks like me. What then? (don't want to start a discussion on plastic. For the record though, the plastic I use does not get me into debt)

Another problem I also see is that we are on tip jar overload. They are everywhere (carwash, starbucks, etc.) and it's cutting into your take for sure.

Journeybear. You can't just pop a CD in and play music in a public establishment. Royalties are legally owed to the artist. Sure, lot's of places get away with it but it's not legal.

[John Rosett]

[QUOTE=Mattg;873Fact was, the owners didn't need him for business and, frankly, he was not a main attraction. Just because he played, is he entitled to tips from everyone?

I'd say that the people that enjoyed the music should tip. The mystery to me is that the people applaud and make positive comments about the music to us, but don't tip. If the patrons didn't like the music, I wouldn't expect to be tipped, or to play at that particular place.

I almost always tip the musician in an establishment and very often when they are busking. I've even taught my kids to tip musicians. Sometimes I can't tip though. I use my debt card or my Amex (for rewards) for most purchases so I don't always have cash on me. Even the smallest establishments take plastic. Like it or not there are more and more folks like me. What then? [/QUOTE]

They do make debit/credit card readers that you can hook up to your cell phone. I've thought about that, but haven't really explored it. You are absolutely right that that's part of the problem. We play at some farmer's markets in the summer where no one takes plastic, and we generally make $50+ per person.

[billkilpatrick]

how about this ...

instead of sitting/standing up there on the stage - or whatever - behind a crackling array of ear-blistering electronics (microphone/amplifier/and speaker(s) et al) - why not simply stroll, jaunty-jolly, from table to table like the old time musicians used to do, without the "aid" of amplification and play quietly ... intimately ... catering to what your audience might like to hear instead of what you might like to play.

i'm 60+ - so i don't imagine i'd be able to pull it off ("poor ol' guy, give him a quarter.") but if you're young(er) with a modicum of charm, i suspect that a serenade on some swain's behalf, in a one-on-one situation, might be more remunerative than trying to command everyone's attention all at once.

just a thought.

[Paul Kotapish]

My criterion for taking a gig is simple. It has to be at least two of the following:

• fun
• musically interesting
• lucrative

The best gigs are all three, of course, but there are occasions when two out of three will do it, and money isn't the prime deal breaker.

I have cut way back on the kinds of gigs that I take, but I still play for tips on occasion--but with absolutely no expectation that those gigs will generate anything at all. Sometimes they do, but rarely enough to justify the gig on that basis, and I would never take a tips-only gig with the hope of making real money.

I play a couple of local coffeehouses because I like the folks I play with and find the music interesting and the gigs are fun for me. There's not much money, but I don't care.

On the other hand, I can still make a reasonable fee playing for dances, and there was a time when I played 60 or 70 square or contra dances a year in addition to playing listening music at concerts, coffeehouses, etc.

A few decades back the dances were packed with my friends and I was playing some interesting music with great players and the door was usually pretty darn good, too. In recent years I have found that the dances aren't much fun or very interesting to me any more, and the pay--while certainly better than playing for tips--just isn't great enough to compensate for the otherwise dreary playing experience.

And I heartily agree that if you want the tips, you have to sell the audience on the idea that it's the right thing to do.

FWIW, one of the better tips-only gigs I do is at a restaurant that presents music in a dedicated room with little tent signs on every table explainging the tips-only deal. Folks opt to sit in that room to listen--it isn't just background music--the jar gets passed from table to table a couple of times during the night, and the take is usually OK. The restaurant supplies drinks and a fine meal, and it's a fun night that I'm happy to do, even if the take-home is less than I might make at a dance.