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Thread: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

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    Celtic Bard michaelpthompson's Avatar
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    Default What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    I see this term a lot, and I know it includes some important things such as nut height and bridge adjustment for action and intonation. But is there anything else?

    I keep seeing that many mandos don't arrive properly setup, so I'm wondering what exactly has to be done to them to be considered properly setup.

    Thanks for any guidance.

  2. #2

    Default Re: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    at the shop i used to work at :
    nut height
    bridge height and position and minor intonation adjustments
    truss rod
    check tuners
    clean and oil fingerboard
    check frets height , loose frets etc
    new strings
    clean and polish
    i think that covers it

  3. #3

    Default Re: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    Hi Michael,

    Setup is a very vague term. It can really mean lots of things.

    Fred's description is a good example, but setups can be all over the place. Even with a list of adjustments performed, the setup is going to be different depending on the particular person doing the work, how much time they spend and what the instrument may need.

    I am pasting the Folkmusician setup below. It may seem unbelievable, but even this does not fully cover all the aspects.

    http://www.folkmusician.com/mandolinsetup.asp
    Robert Fear
    http://www.folkmusician.com

    "Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't.
    " - Pete Seeger

  4. #4

    Default Re: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    The Folkmusician Mandolin Setup

    Bridge

    First we check the adjustability of the bridge. More often than not, we need to modify the bridge to be able to lower it enough to get low action. Additionally, we want a little extra adjustment range should the player prefer it lower than average, or to allow for changes in the mandolin that may occur over time.

    When we say modify the bridge, this means removing wood. This will be taken off the foot. While there are some cases where the saddle portion may be too tall, most of the time we do not want to thin the saddle and weaken it. To make matters worse, many mandolins come from the factory with thin saddles to begin with. We sure do not want to worsen the problem.

    Once we have the necessary adjustment range, we want to check the posts. We find that a lot of mandolins do not have the posts threaded in far enough. Once under full tension, the posts can tear out of the foot. This will be checked and fixed as needed.

    The bridge is one of the most critical parts to a mandolin's tone. String vibrations are transferred from the strings, through the bridge and to the top. If the bridge foot is not fit to the top correctly, some of the vibrations from the strings never make it to the top. We match the foot to the top for good solid contact.

    From the factory, mandolins may not have the strings spaced evenly, or even close. We correct any string spacing issues.

    Strings grooves need to be sized to the individual strings. Additionally, the grooves should be ramped to give a clean breaking point where the string leaves the bridge saddle. We file these to the correct diameter with special files, while making sure the ramp angle is correct.

    The bridge is also the most important factor regarding a mandolins intonation, but this comes later in the setup...

    Moving on to the frets
    This is the big one. The bridge work takes quite a bit of time, but nowhere near the amount of a fret job. Where do we start? How about straightening the fret ends?

    When fret ends are cut at the factory, they have a tendency to bend. A good portion of the mandolins we sell come from the factory with bent fret ends. Since this is at the outer edge of the fingerboard, it is not so much a playability issue as a cosmetic one, though sometimes they are bad enough to cause intonation issues. Our first step is to go through and straighten the fret ends. Even if they are not causing a playability problem, bent frets look funky.

    Most of the mandolins we sell will have frets that are loose to some degree. This can range from a few loose fret ends to every fret having obvious movement. Most are somewhere in between.

    Since you can't accurately level loose frets, these must be seated. The other aspect of this is tone. The bridge transfers the majority of string vibrations to the mandolin. The other factor will be the nut or frets (if fretted). The better your frets are seated, the more vibrations go to the mandolin. Even if the frets are not obviously loose and causing playability issues, a good fret seating will improve the tone of your mandolin.

    This is where things can get a bit complicated. Loose frets have a tendency to popup out of the fingerboard creating uneven frets. If the frets were to be seated like this, a whole lot of fret would have to be filed off to get them level. We do not want to remove any more fret material than necessary. Sometimes these can be hammered or pressed back into place and held long enough to get them seated. Other times, clamps are needed. The point here is to get the frets as level as possible before locking them into place.

    Once we have a good solid (and as level as possible) base to work with, the frets are planed to make sure they are completely level. Since we leveled them first, we are not taking off immense amounts of fret material to do this.

    With all the frets level, attention is turned to crowning (rounding the tops). Filing the frets ends (to remove sharp edges) and polishing them up. This is no small task based on the number of frets, each requiring individual attention.

    Lastly, we will oil the fingerboard. Mandolins almost always need this as they come from the factory.

    The hard work pays off with level frets that will allow us to adjust the action without having to compensate for uneven frets. The mandolin will also be transferring more string vibrations due to the fret seating. The fret ends will be smoother for improved playability. And lastly, it looks better than a factory fretboard.

    Tuners
    At this point we will check the tuners and lube them if needed. This is the best stage to lube the tuners. As we start tuning, detuning, etc., the lubrication will be worked through the gears. If the tuner buttons are held on with screws, these are checked. The top bushings are checked (these like to work themselves out of the post holes). Aside from a quick inspection of the gears, we don't really need to check the functionality at this point. We will know soon enough when the mandolin gets brought up to pitch in the next stages.

    This next set of adjustments all go hand in hand
    Bridge height and position (for intonation), nut height and neck relief (truss rod adjustment) go hand in hand.
    This is another one of those tricky stages. Adjusting one aspect may requires changes in the other areas.

    Nut work
    String spacing is checked and adjusted as needed. The good news here is that the nuts are almost always too high and we have the ability to move the string grooves as needed.

    Once we have the strings spaced evenly, it is time to lower the strings. To simplify this, we basically want the string height at the nut as low as possible without buzzing on the first fret. It is not uncommon for factory mandolins to have a string height at the nut 2-3 times what it should be. OUCH! Another common problem with factory mandolins is a first fret that is too high, requiring the nut to be too high. Since we already addressed this with our fret job, this will not be an issue with our mandolins.

    Like the bridge, the nut should have string grooves that match the individual strings and ramp correctly. The same files used on the bridge get put to work on the nut. String grooves that fit well give better tone, more stable tuning (the string does not bind in the slot), and longer string life.

    Once the string height is all set and the grooves are correct, the excess material is taken off the nut. Deep string grooves can cause problems with binding/buzzing, and additionally, just look bad.

    Playability at the nut is often overlooked with the focus on bridge height. For most players, the nut height is actually the more critical factor in attaining a great playing action. We make sure it is done correctly.

    Relief (truss rod)
    While a neck can be ran perfectly flat, the best playing instruments will have a very slight upward bow. This allows for more clearance in the center where strings tend to travel further when vibrating. We adjust this correctly.

    String height at the bridge
    Once our fretwork is complete, the bridge height can be set based on a player's picking style rather that buzzing due to uneven frets. We find that most players will like the action set at 4/64th at the 12th fret under the G string (A little lower on the E). When set at 4/64ths a player can get reasonably aggressive without buzzing. If a player is a light picker, the action can go lower. Ultimately, the action can be determined by you, the player, not instrument limitations.

    Intonation
    Setting the intonation consists of placing the bridge at the correct distance from the nut so the mandolin plays in tune all the way up and down the fingerboard. If this adjustment isn't correct, a mandolin that is tuned correctly with the strings open may be sharp or flat when it is fretted. There are a few things at work here. First is the distance between the nut and the bridge. Like most things, what seems simple enough quickly gets complicated. Each pair of strings requires a different "ideal" length. This is the reason why mandolin bridges are compensated (staggered on the top). Still, this alone is not always enough and the bridge may be slightly angled one way or the other to get the best compromise across all the strings. Our goal is to get the intonation as close as possible across all the strings in both the open and fretted positions. Once we are done, the mandolin will play in tune.

    Bringing it all together
    We are in the testing stage here... Now comes some playing and tweaking. Once the instrument passes the playing test, everything is checked over one last time. The mandolin is then detuned (it is never a good idea to ship a fully tuned mandolin) and cleaned up.

    Not included in our mandolin setup (but available)
    Now that we have said what we do, let's point out one step we do not include. We do not change the strings. In fact, the strings never even come off the mandolin. The strings are loosened and pulled out of the way for the fret and bridge work. Since many players have a favorite string set or don't mind changing the strings themselves, we can keep the costs down by utilizing the factory strings. If you would prefer that we install a new set of strings, we will be happy to restring the mandolin with any strings you choose for $10 plus the cost of strings.

    I have left out many of the details and I am sure I have forgotten a few things here. We hope this helps explain the reason why Folkmusician mandolins play and sound significantly better than those purchased elsewhere. We look forward to getting you a mandolin that does not compromise on playability no matter what your budget.

    *Unless specifically stated otherwise, EVERY mandolin we sell receives this additional work.
    Robert Fear
    http://www.folkmusician.com

    "Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't.
    " - Pete Seeger

  5. #5
    Celtic Bard michaelpthompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    Thanks so much Robert and Fred. Excellent information. I'm actually working on an old bowlback. It currently has very low frets and the nut is made from a dowel. I'm replacing the nut with bone and waiting on the idea of a refret until I hear how it plays with the new nut. I've just put on new tuners, so I'll lube those as you mentioned. I also have a new set of strings I'm going to put on when it's ready.

    This is an existing mandolin that was played for many years, so I'm hesitant to do anything to the bridge, which is just one piece of wood. I'll see how the action is once I've replaced the nut.

    Thanks for the guidance I've needed.

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    Registered User Lefty Luthier's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    It pains me to hear that the majority of new instruments are shipped from a factory in such deplorable condition. I can't imagine that any semi-competent luthier would release one of his instruments in that condition. Everyone who is looking for an economy instrument would do far better to purchase a used one built by a real luthier who takes pride in his product.
    Byron Spain, Builder
    www.theleftyluthier.com

  7. #7

    Default Re: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    Hi Byron,

    I wouldn't call it "deplorable condition". They are simply not finished, and things like the bridge are tossed in as generic parts that have not yet been fit correctly.

    This is no different than the violin world. It has always been the responsibility of the dealer to setup bowed instruments. A good portion of the violins I sell come to us with no bridge or sound post, no strings, unfit pegs, unfit endpin, fingerboards that need to be planed, nuts that need slotting, etc. This is how it has always been in the bowed world.

    A lot of products use this model. Vehicles are serviced and often partially assembled at the dealer level. This is the current business model for import instruments and I would say that a good portion of domestics benefit from these same steps. Of course, I wouldn't expect to receive a partially assembled mandolin from someone like you. I feel both models have their place. The important thing is that the player ends up with a well setup instrument regardless of whether it was done at the factory level, or by a dealer.
    Robert Fear
    http://www.folkmusician.com

    "Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't.
    " - Pete Seeger

  8. #8

    Default Re: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    Michael,

    Sounds like a fun project!. Let us know how it goes.
    Robert Fear
    http://www.folkmusician.com

    "Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't.
    " - Pete Seeger

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    Celtic Bard michaelpthompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    I sure will Robert. I've already shared quite a bit on this thread. This was a quick eBay buy that turned out to be a lot more work than I had anticipated, but also an enjoyable educational process so far.

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    Default Re: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    When we do a setup we go through the instrument completely from one end to the other to determine exactly what has to be done to optimize the instrument for maximum playability and tone. Most often the nuts are not slotted properly, bridges not set quite right, often the radius will not match the fingerboard/ saddle properly. Often the bridge does not fit well. There are often loose screws that must be tightened. Tailpieces need a piece of cork or leather under the strings on the base, and sometimes under the cover. We restring them and then adjust intonation. Sometimes frets have to be dressed. Often the fret ends have to be filed and sometimes frets have to be glued down tight. We almost always have to adjust the truss rod and then ensure the string height is correct and bridge is in the right location for optimal intonation. We clean the instrument and remove buffing compound, etc.

    In some cases it is not a matter of the builder not having pride. Even hand built instruments can have issues. The best policy for anyone is to have the instrument set up by a competent setup luthier when you get it. If it does not need anything the luthier will tell you. If it does, they can do it and it is money well spent to have it right at the beginning. You are far more likely to love it than if you just assume any mandolin is perfect when you get it. Again, if it is the luthier will tell you. If it is not they will make it right. This is not a slam against builders by any means. Depending upon the situation and person, some are great at some things but not all of them are great at setups. Some are not even very good at fret work. We all have strengths and weaknesses and your best result is working to get the best of each specialty to achieve the very best you can. Your chance of being satisfied are greatly enhanced that way.
    Have a Great Day!
    Joe Vest

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    Luthierus Amateurius crazymandolinist's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    Yeah and to back that up, even a really high end mandolin won't seem "right" to the player and the luthier can find out why and fix it. Even if everything is optimal, it might not be for the player. I've heard of electric guitar players wanting the action raised on their guitars. crazy
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    Pogue Mahone theCOOP's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    Most times you buy a chainsaw, it requires proper setup too. Weed eaters and bicycles and barbeques are the same...some assembly required.

    My only hangup is the possibility that not every mandolin (depeding on price point, etc) receives the work it needs to shine. I'm pretty sure my local folklore ctr. spends next to no time setting up sub-$2000 mandolins, They are junk as far as they're concerned. Then they go and charge a [premium for the instrument. A mandolin that would sell in the U.S. for hundreds below list price, sells at my local dealer for U.S. list+

    For me, $700 isn't just a drop in the bucket. Sometimes, I'm told, it's the cheaper mandolins that can benefit the most from a good setup and can be quite nice. Why any shop owner would send a mandolin out that cannot be played is beyond me.

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    Work in Progress Ed Goist's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    Byron: I couldn't agree more!
    I think I'll turn my next work assignment in to my boss half-@$$ed, and just explain to him that it will need a good set-up before he uses it.
    c.1965 Harmony Monterey H410 Mandolin
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    Registered User Lefty Luthier's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    My complaint is not directed towards those that sell to experienced players who knowingly purchase an inexpensive half complete instrument but rather at selling such things to young first timers. Recently I had a young man who had spent the entire summer mowing lawns to purchase a new $700 instrument. He brought it to me wondering if there was anything I could do to make it easier to play. WOW - I could slip an 0.030 feeler gauge under one foot of the bridge without scratching the finish, the action was 0.290 at the 12th fret and the nut looked like it was slotted with a chainsaw. That is the tragedy.
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    Pogue Mahone theCOOP's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty Luthier View Post
    Recently I had a young man who had spent the entire summer mowing lawns to purchase a new $700 instrument...the nut looked like it was slotted with a chainsaw. That is the tragedy.
    I guess the chainsaw wasn't set up properly
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    lonewolf
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    Default Re: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    When people find out from a teacher, a friend, or on a forum, that they need to get an instrument set-up, they often are puzzled as to why their brand new instrument didn't come to them in optimized plying condition. The answer is, that the single most important part of a set-up, is fitting an instrument to a particular player! Set-ups are far from being a "one size fits all" sort of thing. IF IT'S TRUE that instruments need to be set-up differently for different players, then it follows that it's just not possible to do it at the factory, as they have no way of knowing who the new owner will be, or how they will play.

    Look at the wall of strings in a good sized music store. There are many different strings, of varying sizes, and metal alloys. Players do not all tune to the same pitch. They don't use the same gauge of picks. Some play with a very light pick hand attack, and others beat the instrument like a mad dog!

    In 40 years of being a full time stringed instrument repairman, I have come to realize that the biggest part of my job is always learning as much as I can about the player who's instrument I will be working on. I actually have a printed form with every question I can think of, and a place for additional notes. I sit down with a customer and fill one of those out for every instrument.

    That information still does not allow me to play exactly as he does, but it does give me a good idea of what might, or might not work. With that info at hand I make some decisions, consult with the customer again if needed, and set-up the instrument. I then put it back in the customers hands, with a promise that if he feels that anything needs to be changed, after he has played it a while, I will talk with him about it, and change the parameters of the set-up, until I make it fit him, if I possibly can at no extra charge.

    I give the instrument back with another form, that lists every single thing that I did, and notes about any areas of the set-up that might be changeable if so desired. I also mention anything I saw, that the owner might not be aware of.

    The possible number of ways that a mandolin may be set-up, pales in comparison with what i go through with the solid body rock and rollers these days. Those guys are constantly pushing every limit there is.

    Hope this gave you a little bit more insight as to why a set-up is needed on a brand new instrument. There may not be anything at all wrong with it, but it's not likely to fit you correctly.
    Gene Warner
    repairman

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    lonewolf
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    Default Re: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    Sorry, I left out one important point. A few decades ago, the music biz was quite different. Many music stores were single owners, and the chain stores had not made any sizable appearance yet. When you bought an instrument from a good dealer, you were introduced to the repairman, and most good stores had a fair tech on staff. The stores I worked in gave free set-ups, to anyone purchasing an instrument there.

    When the chain stores came in, it became all about price, and because they bought in volume, they could discount below the smaller stores ability to compete. So now you by your new instrument at the very best price, from a big store, or on-line. Guess what has gone out the window? Service is either no longer available at all, or it's a youngster who can manage restringing, and tuning, but not a lot else.

    So if you want your new instrument to play the way it should, you now have to seek out a good set-up person on your own, If there is a good ending to this story, it's that fortunately it doesn't cost all that much, to get your new toy playing just the way you dreamed it would.
    Gene Warner
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    Celtic Bard michaelpthompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    More thanks for all the great information, and I hope it keeps on coming. I have two reasons for wanting to understand this. First is the vintage bowlback mandolin I've recently acquired, which is turning out to need a lot more work than one might have envisioned from the seller's description. The second is that I've ordered a Rogue "Learn the mandolin" package from Music123, from a thread on this forum. I would imagine the receipt of a $40 mandolin will be another educational experience.

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    Celtic Bard michaelpthompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Folkmusician.com View Post
    First we check the adjustability of the bridge. More often than not, we need to modify the bridge to be able to lower it enough to get low action. Additionally, we want a little extra adjustment range should the player prefer it lower than average, or to allow for changes in the mandolin that may occur over time.

    When we say modify the bridge, this means removing wood. This will be taken off the foot. While there are some cases where the saddle portion may be too tall, most of the time we do not want to thin the saddle and weaken it. To make matters worse, many mandolins come from the factory with thin saddles to begin with. We sure do not want to worsen the problem.

    Once we have the necessary adjustment range, we want to check the posts. We find that a lot of mandolins do not have the posts threaded in far enough. Once under full tension, the posts can tear out of the foot. This will be checked and fixed as needed.

    The bridge is one of the most critical parts to a mandolin's tone. String vibrations are transferred from the strings, through the bridge and to the top. If the bridge foot is not fit to the top correctly, some of the vibrations from the strings never make it to the top. We match the foot to the top for good solid contact.
    OK, it gets a little complicated here. This is a one piece wooden bridge.



    It has no adjustments like screws or anything. I can move it around, and I can take wood off it, but that's about the extent of its adjustment. Are there any other issues of which I need to be aware?

  20. #20
    lonewolf
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    Default Re: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    You are right. That bridge does not give you the room for adjustment, nor the intonation advantages, of the type of bridge that comes on modern style mandolins. The main adjustments that you might be able to make (if needed) would be as follows.
    * Even out the heights of the strings, either to the radius of a curved fingerboard, or the more likely flat one, by lowering the string notches of the higher ones. Look across the strings from either side (hold them up to eye level), to see how their heights relate to each other.
    * Raise or lower the action of all strings, by shimming the bottom of the bridge (strings too low), or removing a bit of wood (strings too high).
    * Position the bridge by sliding it backwards or forwards from the fingerboard, to improve the intonation. Try to get the same note open on each pair of strings, that you get when fretted at the 12th fret. The bridge usually winds up sitting at an angle. with the treble side closer to the fingerboard, than the bass side. You can also move it side to side to center stings on the neck. You can mark the position of the rear edge of the bridge on both sides, by using a small strip of clear scotch tape, so that when the bridge slips out of position (and it will), you will know where it belongs.

    A good professional set-up would remove the nut from the action setting at the bridge, by fretting all strings at the first fret. Then once the action was close at the bridge, the strings would be un-fretted, and the action at the nut would be adjusted, by using nut files. Evaluation of the neck, and frets would also be made. Chances are this instrument does not have an adjustable truss rod. Some of the excess wood at the top of the bridge string slots might also be removed, as well as excess material at the nut, to help avoid the strings binding in the slots.
    Gene Warner
    repairman

  21. #21
    Registered User Jim Ferguson's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    Big Joe.........what should one expect to pay for a set-up???? Is there a pretty standard fee??? Just curious as I am pondering taking my Gibson F-9 to a local luthier/music shop owner for a set-up. I bought it at Guitar Centre 6 years ago & it really was never set-up properly. Thanks for any input.
    Peace,
    Jim

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    Default Re: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    Even the best of instruments that are already set-up may need adjustments for the specific player. Some play very hard, with a hard chop, and strike the strings hard on a break. They may need the action a little higher to reduce possible fret noise. And, of course, the volume and tone may change a little when any adjustments are made. Some play a little lighter and prefer low action. However, they may give up some volume to do that. So, it's some give & take, depending on the player and the instrument. If it's not set-up the way a buyer thinks it should be, it doesn't necessarily mean the builder does half --- work.

    Bob

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    Quote Originally Posted by michaelpthompson View Post
    This is a one piece wooden bridge.

    It has no adjustments like screws or anything. I can move it around, and I can take wood off it, but that's about the extent of its adjustment. Are there any other issues of which I need to be aware?
    I wonder. From the picture I am guessing that the bridge is backwards - the thicker slots are under the thinner strings.
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    Closet Banjo Picker P.D. Kirby's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    "To simplify this, we basically want the string height at the nut as low as possible without buzzing on the first fret. It is not uncommon for factory mandolins to have a string height at the nut 2-3 times what it should be. OUCH!"

    Robert,

    Is there an ideal spacing or gap between the strings and the first fret that you start with or is the nut filed as low as possible without buzzing?

    Thanks
    Phillip
    Never Argue with an Idiot, they will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

  25. #25
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Nashville
    Posts
    4,966

    Default Re: What exactly constitutes a "setup"?

    Jim... I cannot speak for other shops, but a pro setup at our shop is $75.00 and that includes strings. We go through the instrument completely and ensure it will perform at its best. Some shops will be higher and some will be lower. We have not increased our price for a number of years. We will probably have to sometime, but we do try to hold our prices as much as possible.
    Have a Great Day!
    Joe Vest

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