Munroe.....inventor of the "Rhythm Chop" ?????

[Duane Graves]

Is there any truth to the fact that Bill Munroe invented the "rhythm chop"? I am sure that he perfected it in terms of its sound and timing but is there evidence that he invented it? curious--dgg

[Rick Cadger]

I imagine it's very hard to say. Most string instruments have a staccato technique. Fiddle players pluck or chop/chunk, even 'ukulele players use a muting technique known as chunking, which is pretty much equivalent to a mando chop.

I'm sure there were percussive techniques before WSM, but who can say for sure whether they used the quick-release chop method of the bluegrass chop. Not many people around now from the pre-Bill days to testify...

[Charley wild]

I don't know if he invented it, but my question would be; was he the first to apply the way he did. i.e. On the offbeat as a driving force rather than just strumming.

[Mike Bunting]

Is there any truth to the fact that Bill Munroe invented the "rhythm chop"? I am sure that he perfected it in terms of its sound and timing but is there evidence that he invented it? curious--dgg

Since you say that it is a fact, that he invented the chop, it follows that it is true.

[JonZ]

Of course he did! Quit yer trolling!

[allenhopkins]

Unanswerable question. Howtheheck are we to know what the millions of mandolinists who preceded Monroe (with an "o") did? What seems evident, is that Bill Monroe uniquely emphasized that technique when he became a band leader with the Blue Grass Boys. You don't hear "chopping" emphasized on the Monroe Brothers recordings.

As a band leader, Monroe was very concerned about "time," as he put it -- making sure his band members played with the right tempo and rhythm. In order to enforce this, he made his mandolin the band's metronome, when he wasn't soloing. I saw him once in live performance aggressively pushing his young banjo player, Jim Moratto I believe, by chopping just a bit ahead of the backbeat.

If you listen to bluegrass mandolin players of the "1st generation" -- McReynolds, Osborne, Lambert, Busby, Sechler, Lilly, Duffey et. al. -- you'll find that they adopted the Monroe "chop," though perhaps not as consistently or aggressively. Now it's considered the "standard" role for the instrument. That's due entirely to Monroe's influence, whether he "invented" the technique or not.

[Steve Ostrander]

Maybe he didn't invent it, but he certainly perfected it!

[jim simpson]

The first thing I noticed about bluegrass was the chop and I loved it. I think it stuck there under the surface for years before I switched my attention to learning mandolin.

[mandroid]

Munro is a 3000'+ tall mountain in the Scottish Highlands,

Monroe was that guy in Kentucky.

[AlanN]

What I love about that chop of Monroe is how he'd 'announce' the next tune to the band by hitting it once, right where he wanted it. And boy, you'd better be on your toes, cause he warn't gonna do it again!

[Mandolin Mick]

Well, if he didn't invent it, he certainly popularized it. He made it an intrical part of Bluegrass ... the best part!!!

[mandobassman]

As a band leader, Monroe was very concerned about "time," as he put it -- making sure his band members played with the right tempo and rhythm. In order to enforce this, he made his mandolin the band's metronome, when he wasn't soloing. I saw him once in live performance aggressively pushing his young banjo player, Jim Moratto I believe, by chopping just a bit ahead of the backbeat.

This is the first time I have ever seen Jim Moratto's name when talking about the Bluegrass Boys. I played in a band in Houston back in 2003 that Jim was a member of for about a year. I found it rather exciting to perform with a real "Bluegrass Boy". He hadn't played banjo in several years and was somewhat rusty, but he had a nice style. He played with Monroe in 1972 for about 10 months. He was 21 years old. I believe he was on one live recording with Monroe.

Sorry to stray from the thread but it was nice to see his name mentioned.

[craig.collas]

again off topic but I wish I could do the chop thing better I love that sound

[journeybear]

It is probably impossible to answer this, as there are not going to be an adequate number of recordings going back far enough to determine this with a certainty. Plenty of people will say he perfected and popularized the technique - which was not the question - but without early recordings of every dang mandolin picker who came down the pike back then, who can say for sure? His chops are an integral part of his musical style and thus bluegrass as it came to be known, and they are sharp and defining, so sharp they can cut the top off an O and make it look like a U. Even now, years after his passing. Amazing stuff!

[Salty Dog]

If you listen to the Columbia historical recordings of the 1945 Blue Grass boys (with some outtakes), you will hear (my opinion) Bill reduce his vocal domination, giving the lead vocal role more to Lester, and concentrating more on the mandolin and actually competing with Earl's banjo. I believe he developed the chop to replicate and compete with the "chunking (I forget the proper name) that Earl was doing on the banjo, which was essentiall an off-beat rhythm lick. Allen was right, it wasn't in the Monroe Brothers music or in the prewar recordings with Stringbean and Howdy Forrester (fiddle) and his wife (accordion). It wasn't in the early "classic" band recordings but was present strongly in their later recordings. That pins it down to 1945-1947. He also started wandering from the classic "Brother Band" mandolin style similar to the Blue Sky Boys to a more sassy ("in your face, banjo player!) style.

[GRW3]

To me the chop seems derivative of the jazz/swing comp form. (I mean that in the 'historical antecedant' not the 'dimenished version' understanding of derivative.) The jazz/swing comp pattern is a closed chord strum held then strum mute, which we might call 'chop', thus strum chop strum chop. The Monroe method eliminates the held strum leaving the chop thus (beat) chop (beat) chop. This semi-syncopated form adds drive to the music. There is a wide range of techniques than can be used to color the rhytm all the way from swing to Monroe and add a lot of interest to the music.

[Fretbear]

Earl and WSM were making it up as they went along, possibly not even really knowing that they were splitting the stringband atom while they were doing so, although I'm sure they got a clue when the crowds at the Opry started near rioting and they heard their first recorded playbacks.
You will hear no chop in any Monroe Brothers recording; it came along, albeit sparingly, when he got Lester, Earl and his new/old Loar.
He was known to use it later not only to "inflict" his rhythm on his band members, but also to mess with other people. There is a story in "Can't You Hear Me Callin'" about a flash pair of brothers who wanted to impress him with their playing and how he dispatched them effortlessly with his chop by messing with their time.

[Ivan Kelsall]

To answer the question with any authority,you'd really have to explore the Mandolin playing of the time in all it's forms. It's hard to see that a Mandolin 'chop' chord rhythm would fit into the 'classical' style of playing. If Mandolin was being used in the Jazz music of the time,then it's possible that 'chop' chords 'may' have been used - maybe some Jazz musicologist with knowledge of that era would know. Then we have the folk who lived in the rural areas,much as Bill Monroe & his family did. If there were any Mandolins being used in 'rural' music,then chords would be a natural thing to learn, & using those chords to play rhythm would be natural,but whether they were 'chop' chords would be hard to ascertain.
My personal feeling is that it's very likely that Bill Monroe did develop his 'chop' chord style as a percussive backbeat to the other players, & a way to bring the Mandolin 'forward' when the other players were soloing.
Whatever,good chop chord playing is a 'must' in trad.Bluegrass & for all it's basic simplicity,for me it's one of the most exciting sounds in there,
Ivan

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

I don't know if he invented it, but him and his Gibsun had it down to a science.

[journeybear]

I don't think GRW3 was saying mandolin was used in jazz, but rather was drawing a link between the staccato rhythm guitar playing in jazz bands by Charlie Christian and others and Monroe's chop technique. This is an interesting comparison, though Monroe's innovation was to emphasize the 2 and 4 backbeats, while Christian played every beat, perhaps emphasizing the backbeats slightly from time to time. Keep in mind that in the small jazz combos that included Benny Goodman and Charlie Christian, the guitar was the main rhythm instrument, while in bluegrass bands rhythm is produced by guitar playing on the 1 and 3 downbeats and mandolin playing on the 2 and 4 backbeats. And bass, of course, on the downbeats, typically, in bluegrass, and all four beats in jazz, in the walking bass style.

[delsbrother]

Did he invent the four-finger voicings?

[ralph johansson]

If you listen to the Columbia historical recordings of the 1945 Blue Grass boys (with some outtakes), you will hear (my opinion) Bill reduce his vocal domination, giving the lead vocal role more to Lester, and concentrating more on the mandolin and actually competing with Earl's banjo. I believe he developed the chop to replicate and compete with the "chunking (I forget the proper name) that Earl was doing on the banjo, which was essentiall an off-beat rhythm lick. Allen was right, it wasn't in the Monroe Brothers music or in the prewar recordings with Stringbean and Howdy Forrester (fiddle) and his wife (accordion). It wasn't in the early "classic" band recordings but was present strongly in their later recordings. That pins it down to 1945-1947. He also started wandering from the classic "Brother Band" mandolin style similar to the Blue Sky Boys to a more sassy ("in your face, banjo player!) style.

Howdy Forrester never recorded with Monroe. Wilene joined about the time he left. The accordion band recorded in early 1945, not quite pre-war. The band with F&S made its first studio recordings in 1946.

I believe Monroe's chop was inspired by the sock rhythm guitar in country music and other genres. You don't hear much of it on the Columbia recordings. On these Monroe sang less and played more countermelodies or parts behind Flatt's singing or the fiddle. Also, a lot of this music was in 4/4. Later they switched to a two feel for the most part where you had the bass notes on the beats and the mandolin chop on the "and" 's.

Of course, there's much more to rhythm mandolin than chopping, and you can hear that too.

[MikeEdgerton]

I think you'll find that the chop has more in common with the snare drums of the big bands than anything else.

[Charlieshafer]

The off-beat accent has been around for hundreds of years. The way Monroe applied the mandolin to it my be different, but and contra dancer, Scots dancer, square dancer, etc, knows that the "reggae-beat" chop is essential to good dance music. It's what gives the dancers the "lift" when they're moving. Gravity itself takes care of the "down beat" where the weight of the dancers comes back to the floor, and the chop happens when the lift of the dance step occurs. Without this accent, either implied as in some Scots or Irish dance fiddling, or hard-edged, as in Monroe's mandolin, the chop has been around for hundreds of years. Listen to dance music through the years; without the chop music isn't suitable for dance.

[journeybear]

Did he invent the four-finger voicings?

No!

I think you'll find that the chop has more in common with the snare drums of the big bands than anything else.

Yes!

... either implied as in some Scots or Irish dance fiddling, or hard-edged, as in Monroe's mandolin, the chop has been around for hundreds of years.

Interesting point. Not being a dancer, this hadn't occurred to me, but now it seems obvious. Also obvious - Monroe didn't invent the back beat, but definitely applied it to bluegrass. Whether he was the first to do so is debatable - apparently - probably unprovable, and ultimately inconsequential, IMO. It's more important and influential that he popularized the chop than invented it. That's what made it an integral part of bluegrass music, and the mandolin an integral part of the instrumentation of the genre, the only genre of which that can be said. Of course, that wasn't the OP's question. Good luck with that. Carry on!