Munroe.....inventor of the "Rhythm Chop" ?????

[JonZ]

It is a little known fact that Monroe was also the inventor of the "Mandolin Karate Chop", having employed it to calm a near-rioting Opry audience member.

The move was later adapted to the electric guitar by Kieth Richards at Altamont, CA.

[JeffD]

I think you'll find that the chop has more in common with the snare drums of the big bands than anything else.

I hadn't put that together before, but I think you are right on.

I saw a bluegrass band a while back that on one number had a washboard on rhythm. It clashed horribly with the mandolin chop.

[re simmers]

There have always been rhythms of all kinds as long as music has existed. But, IMHO, from what I'm read & heard, I think Bill deserves a lot of credit for the "boom-chop" of an upright bass and a mandolin chop driving the music, combined with Earl's banjo. I'm not aware of a mandolin used as such a weapon before. I guess 'inventor' is probably too strong, but Bill is as close as you can get to 'inventor.'

Also, seeing Sam Bush's most recent DVDs, the rhythm one, of course, I think Sam took the rhythm of the mandolin another level.

Bob

[Charlieshafer]

Well, if you keep the definition of chop limited to mandolin, you might be able to say he "invented" it, but that's a dangerous word to use in music. There's nothing that hadn't or hasn't been done before, period. The boom-chop you might be referring to was very popular in early New Orleans jazz, using bass and banjo. Jelly Roll Morton's whole career was based on that rhythm, and any reasonably astute musician of that period would know Jelly Roll's music well. And, as I mentioned before, it's the mainstay of dance music for hundreds of years. Music is evolutionary, not revolutionary.

[allenhopkins]

Now the next question: did Sam "Porky" Hutchins, Jimmy Martin's sideman, invent the pork chop?

[Ivan Kelsall]

The Tenor Banjo as used in many bands at the time that Bill Monroe began performing, also used a 'percussive' rhythmic 'chop'. Wherever Bill Monroe took the idea from,it's simply another example of him discovering & adapting something else that worked in 'HIS' music,
Ivan

[Duane Graves]

Now the next question: did Sam "Porky" Hutchins, Jimmy Martin's sideman, invent the pork chop?

.....Allen, you should post this....I mean "did Porky invent the pork chop?".....an intrigueing question indeed (wink).

[Mandoist]

The Tenor Banjo as used in many bands at the time that Bill Monroe began performing, also used a 'percussive' rhythmic 'chop'. Wherever Bill Monroe took the idea from,it's simply another example of him discovering & adapting something else that worked in 'HIS' music

In conversations I've had through the years with Monroe, and hearing stories he told to others, I gathered his 'back-beat' came from hearing the "Negro chaingangs" singing in time with their hammers while working on the railroad and roads near his home in Rosine.

I seriously doubt Monroe heard much -- if any -- of the music styles previously mentioned in this post?

BTW: I believe his back-beat mando chop was part of the total equation in his Rock n' Roll Hall of Fame induction.

[ralph johansson]

The chain gang theory is really cute, truly romantic. And big band drumming? Really, it's a bit more refined than that and even the Lunceford band played with a much more even beat than the somewhat rigid 2/2 of bluegrass. Bluegrass is closer to polka and marches than to 40's swing.

The chop goes with that groove, and I would really like to hear more 4/4 in bluegrass, because it slows things down a bit and makes it easier for soloists to create rhythmic interest. Stop the chop!

[re simmers]

If the chop is related to snare drums, would the drummer be called "chop sticks?"

Bob

[MikeEdgerton]

So Monroe never listened to a radio. Interesting thought.

[journeybear]

... Bluegrass is closer to polka and marches than to 40's swing.

The chop goes with that groove, and I would really like to hear more 4/4 in bluegrass, because it slows things down a bit and makes it easier for soloists to create rhythmic interest. Stop the chop!

Good luck with that! And you keep them polka-playing accordions away from me! And bluegrass, too!

[Tom Mylet]

I've never seen any of the experts mention it but after listening to one of the earlier Bear Family Box Sets of Monroe, I came to the conclusion that he used the chop very little until Jimmy Martin joined the band. My conclusion was the Bill used the chop as a way of keeping Jimmy's "effusive personality" somewhat in check.

It was also when a lot of songs went up to the key of B.

'Just my thoughts on...not necessarily based on anything substantial...

[Brent Hutto]

Can't Scott please change the speling of "Monroe" in this thread? Pretty please?

[GRW3]

Bob Wills introduced drums to the Opry in 1945... You can bet the Texas Playboys had a rhythm guitar player too... Bill was a member longstanding by then and I believe he appeared every Saturday night. He might of mixed that but for somebody so savy about positioning himself against rivals I doubt it.

[journeybear]

Can't Scott please change the speling of "Monroe" in this thread? Pretty please?

What? After so many of us have had so much fun with it? (And at the OP's expense. Sorry, duane, I really am; it's just too easy, and irresistible.) Besides, it makes this thread real easy to find via search.

[Duane Graves]

Sorry for the spelling...I was on my way out the door and had this on my mind so quickly posted...we have Munroe's (not related) living in the area and they spell it with a "u" consequently a mindset is established .........but when you are dealing with "almost" deity, man, YOU BETTER SPELL IT RIGHT....an honest mistake so take deep breaths Allen and Brent especially and, yes, the fellow with the Gibsun, also (with a smile). A friend of mine has a habit of saying "...who has more fun that people..." --dgg

[JonZ]

I give you credit for spelling "rhythm" correctly--very tricky word.

[Charlieshafer]

So Monroe never listened to a radio. Interesting thought.

Interesting to say the least! For a touring musician of Monroe's stature to be unaware of all the other styles playing around the country and especially the south at that time is a wee bit unlikely.

[Mandoist]

The chain gang theory is really cute, truly romantic.

It's not a "cute theory" nor a "romantic" notion. It's a fact, if not a bona-fide historic fact. Bill told how he used to stop his own work as a kid in Ohio County, Kentucky and listen to the chaingangs sing while they worked. Monroe said he would "set a spell and listen to their calling out" then "the sound of their hammers in perfect time" (I'm guessing sledge hammers?).

It was a part of life back then to see chaingangs working in fields, on the railroad tracks, etc. Actually, I remember seeing the gangs working along the highways and in grave yards in the deep south in the 60s - 70s.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Tom Mylet - .Jimmy's "effusive personality" . Is that what it was ?. Methinks you'd have needed a team of horses to keep that in check - what a character !,
Ivan

[ralph johansson]

I've never seen any of the experts mention it but after listening to one of the earlier Bear Family Box Sets of Monroe, I came to the conclusion that he used the chop very little until Jimmy Martin joined the band. My conclusion was the Bill used the chop as a way of keeping Jimmy's "effusive personality" somewhat in check.

It was also when a lot of songs went up to the key of B.

'Just my thoughts on...not necessarily based on anything substantial...

On the first Decca recordings (50- jan 51) the bass player was Joel Price who played a lot in 4/4, especially on solos. Monroe's playing is still quite busy. For the next few years (51-54) the bass player was Ernie Newton, a session musician, with a decidedly 2/2 approach, further emphasized by his use of his slap gadget on the and's.
Compare the two versions of Georgia Rose: 1) C, Joel Price, one fiddle 2) B, Newton, three fiddles.

The chop belongs in a 2/2, rather than 4/4, groove. It also represented a simplification, or tidying up,
of the group sound.

[Mandoist]

On the first Decca recordings (50- jan 51) the bass player was Joel Price who played a lot in 4/4, especially on solos. Monroe's playing is still quite busy. For the next few years (51-54) the bass player was Ernie Newton, a session musician, with a decidedly 2/2 approach, further emphasized by his use of his slap gadget on the and's. Compare the two versions of Georgia Rose: 1) C, Joel Price, one fiddle 2) B, Newton, three fiddles. The chop belongs in a 2/2, rather than 4/4, groove. It also represented a simplification, or tidying up,
of the group sound.

Yes, it's true...even "The Father's" music evolved.

I almost 100% agree in the philosophy of a previous post:
"Music is an evolution, not a revolution"