Tube Amp

[Ed Goist]

Bumping this thread looking for comments about, and suggestions for, a small combo tube amp for my JBovier EMC-4 four string, solid-body e-mando. I play Rock and Blues on it.

I've been playing through a Line 6 Spider III 75 solid state emulator, and I thought everything sounded great, until I recently played through a friend's 50W Marshall tube amp. The difference was remarkable! Universally warmer and fatter. Interestingly; the difference between the Marshall & the Line 6 was much more significant on the e-mando than on our guitars. Weird?

Anyways, I am now watching Craigs & ebay for a small combo tube amp. Any comments, pros/cons, etc. about these:

Marshall 50 tube amp
Carvin Nomad
Hughes & Kettner Edition Tube amp
Fender Blues Jr
Fender Super Champ XD
Peavey Classic 30
Crate v1512
Traynor YCV20
Kustom Defender V15
Vox AC15

Any others I should keep my eyes open for?

[Ben Milne]

Sure is nothing like the real thing, Ed.


Fender blues jr, or see if you can find some Blackstar to try.

[Tom Wright]

The Fender Hot Rod Deluxe is a reliable performer, not too big but a solid 40W in a generous cabinet, and at a decent price. Meaty tone. Lots of pros use them, I had one, but decided to go lightweight with solid state.

[CelticDude]

I suggest taking your mando to the local guitar superstore and start plugging into amps. It's the best way I know to find an amp you like, and it's worth the price of admission just for the comments on your instrument. I did this with my Jon Mann electric octave, and after a few trips to different stores, I've ended up with a Vox Night Train and a Fender Blues Jr. Both are 15 watts, and have sounds that are different enough to justify both, at least in my mind. (The perfect amp is really 2 or 3 amps; just have to convince my wife of this...)

[Big Joe]

Amps are just like mandolins or guitars. You can settle for a Chinese made mediocre amp distributed by the big names, or get a true boutique amp hand made in the USA. The difference is night and day. Factory made amps are at best mediocre in the performance. They can be loud, but they are also noisy. If you expect to get optimal tone you have to play it loud and then you induce noise that can be quite irritating. You may not be hearing the noise while you play, but you will when you stop. In addition, the sound is pretty generic. It may seem good until you hear a really good amp. Hand made amps by reputable builders are the best choice for the same reason a hand made mandolin by a top luthier is the best choice if you can afford it. In addition, most custom amp builders will stand behind their product.

I have a Goodsell 10 watt tube amp that just kicks. I also have a 33 watt that I use when I play out. You can google Goodsell amps and check out his selection. They are not cheap, but they are extremely good amps and will give the full tone and presence even at low volumes. When you play an amp of this quality you will understand why boutique amps are just as important as boutique guitar or mandolins. They are not for everyone, but if you play a great instrument you need to have a great amp to match it to.

Another amp to check out is Samamp. That is also an excellent small combo with great tone and performance.

[rico mando]

for my 5 string emando i really enjoy my mesa boogie 5:25 express 1x10 but there are many great amp choices out there .

[Ed Goist]

We have a small, local, boutique music shop in town, and the owner carries and speaks very highly of Blackheart all-tube amps.
I hadn't heard of them before, but was very impressed by this demo video for their BH15-112 'Handsome Devil':



There is also a very interesting comparison video on YouTube featuring one of these and a Fender Blues Junior.

I'll be heading to the shop e-mando in hand this weekend to try one of these out.

In the meantime, I'd like to hear from others who have played through/owned a Blackheart amp.

[rico mando]

not heavy enough distortion/drive for my full range of tastes but seems quite nice if your not getting heavier than blues or rock and roll

[Ed Goist]

Rico, thanks much for your comments.
Oh, and I just found this demo video also. Very nice. Looking forward to trying one of these out.

[rico mando]

These guys do better demo's , this had better bottom end in the audio . wonder if you can dial in some metal rhythm crunch or high gain metal leads . nice cleans on it as far as i can tell great blues and rock sounds as well , you will have to give us a more hands on review when you check this out .

Really want to know how much headroom this baby has

[Dave Schimming]

I have the Fender Super Champ XD which puts out great sound with my Tele & Strat and weighs only 24 pounds. Having said that I don't feel that the acoustic setting on channel 2 was intended for good acoustic instrument sound reproduction (or it just doesn't) and an electric guitar amp is designed to color the signal. If it were me and I wanted a clean acoustic sound for mandolin I would purchase one of the solid state amps designed for acoustic instruments (number of good options out there).

[Dan Hulse]

Hey Ed, I have an Epiphone Valve Jr. (head) & a Bugera V22, both of which can be found at GC, or you can come play through mine if you find yourself on the far west side. My mando bird really screams through the Bugera. If you want to go the boutique route there is always Dr. Z. Happy hunting!

[Ed Goist]

Thanks so much for all the comments and suggestions!
Dave, I am not at all looking for an amplified clean acoustic 8-string mandolin sound. I am looking for a distinct solid-body, electric mandolin sound (think Jeff Bird with Cowboy Junkies).
1-2-many; thanks for the Bugera recommendation. I'll have to add that to my list to try. After I get this all figured out, and move forward, we should try to get together and violate some of Ohio's anti-noise statutes.

[Dan Hulse]

Sounds good Ed, I'm always up for making some noise, I mean music.

[Ed Goist]

Began test-driving tube amps today...
Sorry about the earthquake.

[Ed Goist]

I saw on the liner notes for "Time Slips On By" that Rich DelGrosso and Del Toro Richardson both use Category 5 Tube Amps exclusively. Awesome tone on this album!

So, I went to the Category 5 artist page and began to drool when I saw the artists' names listed there (the first row of the page features pics of Joe Bonamassa, Gary Moore & Warren Haynes!).

Then I went to the info & shop page for the 18W Tsunami combo, and I began to weep when I saw the price.

[Chris Ferreira]

Have you checked out Carrs? (www.carramps.com) NFI. A friend of mine swears by these. I've played through them (guitar and mando) and they really are impressive. Lots of tonal options even at low volume. They're also hand wired but somewhat less expensive than the Cat-5 will set you back.

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

Ed - you are just going to have to try out different ones. The choices are just overwhelming, and we all seem to like something different it seems.
If price is a big factor, that will narrow it down!
I use a 74 Fender Princeton Reverb, and piggy back it with a 74 Fender Super Reverb for fullness, when portability is not the biggest issue of the day (thus usually this is an at home application!). I happen to like the Fender vintage tube amp sound. I also use a 65 Fender Vibrolux Reverb, which is a much more sparkly and interesting sound, but it is not the amp I want to take out and about, for a variety of reasons.
On most Fender amps of the 70's there was a departure from the 60's (Blackface) circuitry and sound. But the Princeton was relatively unchanged until mid to late 70's. The 70's Silverface Fender amps are not as highly priced as the Blackfaces, and actually many have been "Blackfaced" somewhere along the line by amp techs. But you probably know this stuff already.
Juke amps, hand made in New Hampshire a few at a time, and occasionally available used, are awesome amps. If I needed to play my electric regularly, I would obtain and use a Juke. But my electric gigs are few and far between, and the Fenders do double duty nicely for my Tele (my Cajun band persona). Economy and reality rule.
I once was bit badly by amp acquisition syndrome, but fought it off by researching, obtaining, and utilizing quality NOS tubes, with surprisingly successful results. Then I had to fight off speaker acquisition syndrome. Fortunately I believe in not deviating from original speakers (isn't that a part of what the particular amp is about?) unless absolutely necessary, which saved me somewhat. Unfortunately, they don't last forever in the vintage amps.
I hope you find the one that works for you soon.

[Ed Goist]

Jonathan; thanks for the thorough and informative post.
Getting to play my JBovier through that tube amp was a real eye-opener. A game-changer of sort for how I thought about the e-mando sound in general.
Since then, I have come somewhat to my senses (though the "tube emulations" coming from my Line6 do seem vastly inferior than they did before my "tube awakening"). Right now, I've moved into the researching and trying-out mode, and will be sure to be patient in the search.
I know what I want: raw, bluesy tones overall; crisp cleans, growling overdrive, & a small, light package. It should be a fun search!
As always I'm finding the Cafe to be immensely helpful!

[rico mando]

Did you try the blackheart amps yet ED ? those demo's seemed good although they did not show any metal type sounds but that does not seem to be in your taste (yet)

[Ed Goist]

Hi Rico; the Blackheart demo is scheduled for Saturday morning (unless I can make it to the shop tomorrow night, which is also a possibility).

I've also added the VOX AC4TV to my short-list to demo based on a recommendation from Jeff Bird. Jeff said that this little amp is the closest commercial amp he's heard to his custom prototype harp amp built by Rick Steeves of Homewrecker Amps in Canada, eh!...Strong recommendation!

[rico mando]

I have heard good things about vox ac4tv though in the context of being a good apartment practice amp . there is a forum i like to go to for gear reviews of the electric and recording type . it is called gearslutz . you may want to check it out , but it is not the same community as we have here . but great place for recording engineering info

[Ignatius]

I've also added the VOX AC4TV to my short-list to demo based on a recommendation from Jeff Bird. Jeff said that this little amp is the closest commercial amp he's heard to his custom prototype harp amp built by Rick Steeves of Homewrecker Amps in Canada, eh!...Strong recommendation!

Ed--

I'm not a heavy distortion guy on guitar and am only looking for a little oomph to get the sound going at times, and I actually have not used an e-mando at all. With that said, I found the Vox AC4TV to be vastly underwhelming--one of the single most disappointing purchases of my storied list of unwise music purchases over time. First off, unless things have changed, the AC4TV has a record of a very specific recurring problem: the tone control doesn't appear to work on a large percentage of the amps (at least the combo units). Given their low cost, if you order one of these via mail order, the shipping costs for return and exchange pretty much eat up the value of the amp if the tone control doesn't work (this was the case for me) so if you choose to buy one, buy local because from what I've read, the odds are likely that you will need to exchange it at least once.

In terms of sound, the big selling point of the AC4TV is its ability to adjust output via a built-in attenuator. On its lowest power settings, the amp sounds very thin and piercing, even on guitar, and the distortion is virtually immediate and '80s style unpleasant. In other words, the amp pretty much goes from undistorted to overdistorted on immediately. There really isn't a "gain" or slight overdrive option on this setting.

It is marginally better on the second setting, and the tone sounds decent on the highest setting (4 watts, as I recall). Now, if you are living in an apartment, 4 watts is an ungodly large amount of sound; i.e., tube watts are much, much louder than solid state watts. To get overdrive on a four-watt tube amp, you need to have the amp turned up loud enough to bother your neighbors.

Long story short, I ended up with an amp that only sounded good on its un-attenuated setting and lacked a tone control. The build quality is what you would expect from a cheap import made in Vietnam. Unlike the rising quality of overseas mandolins, overseas amp production remains a problematic issue. As Big Joe said above, you need to think about amp builds in the same way one thinks about mandolin builders: find reputable builders (large or small, North American or overseas) who are committed to quality and not necessarily quantity. I don't think the AC4TV will serve well as a practice amp for someone who wants to use the amp as an extension of his or her instrument's tonal palette, and I could imagine it really thinning out the sound of an e-mando.

You also need to be conscious of what you are buying in the AC4TV: depending on where it's sold, it has either an 8" or a 10" speaker. An 8" speaker is never going to sound full or lush even in a practice setting so you will want the 10" for sure. Again, keep in mind that this amp never is going to be truly full or lush sounding. I see stories about people buying these and modding the daylights out of them, and that's great if that's your intention, but if you need to do things like change the cabinet, upgrade the speaker, and repair the tone control, you're basically paying for a much better amp with all these costs--but still only end up with a cheap practice amp at the heart of things.

I'm actually quite interested in learning more about the samamp VAC system of adjusting output as well as the use of power scaling in some builders like Reeves Amplification in Ohio. Both of these systems use a type of output adjustment quite different from attenuators, which I have not yet found satisfactory. I currently am using a Weber Mini-Mass with my Fender Vibro Champ, and the attenuator still sucks too much tone, even only partially taming a five or six watt amp like the late '60s Vibro Champ. I'd encourage you to explore power scaling, which appears on various amps (do a search on either power scaling or go to the Reeves Amplification website where they have some links to discussions of this option under the descriptions of particular amps they build). I just started exploring samamp since Big Joe mentioned them, and the VAC system is proprietary to their builder/designer so it is only available on his amps. So far, what I've read in reviews on the Internet says that the VAC (Variable Amplitude Clipping) system works extremely well, and the basic amp has a 12" speaker which is going to give much more fullness even to your quieter practice time.

Ignatius

[Ed Goist]

Ignatius; thank you for the thorough, detailed and informative post.
Your post has reinforced three of my requirements for a combo tube amp:
* A strong preference for a 12" speaker...10" is okay if the amp sounds killer with it, but NOTHING smaller.
* No distances purchases...I have to hear it, and play through it, before I'll buy it.
* No modifications or complicated controls allowed. Plug in here...Flip this switch...Turn this knob...Make music.
Thanks again for the post.

[Charlieshafer]

Not sure why the large speaker is so important. They are sort of a throw-back to the era when all the sound for a gig came out of the speaker cabinets on stage. Now, we tend to want to mic a speaker cabinet for more even sound dispersion through an entire room. The warmth that people describe with a large cabinet is actually the larger diameter speaker's inability to resolve tiny little details. It's a physics thing, the smaller the cone, the less it has to travel, the magnet can control the cone's movement better, and you get less unwanted wave propagation across the actual surface of the cone. The larger cones are a touch slower to respond, even with a larger magnet, especially with the more common paper cones. For a mandolin, pretty much all you're using are higher frequencies, so an 8 inch cone is more than enough. Take a look at all the really high-end audiophile speaker systems out there: most use nothing larger than 8 inch drivers, many smaller, and just a few use a large 12 inch cone specifically as a woofer, with a cross-over cutoff set to about 200hz.

There's always a little controversy over this, but bigger does not mean better, especially with a mandolin. John Jorgenson shows up with his little amp with a 6" speaker, and it sounds phenomenal.

The electronics are more critical, which is why the boutique amps are so popular. Carr was mentioned earlier, they're great, the 56's are superb, and we use a Swart Space Tone with an 8" driver for our shows, and mic the cabinet. Some pretty hot guitarists have played through it and all really liked the tone, and with the guitar, they're hitting much lower notes than you ever will on a mandolin.

Don't want to muddy the waters, and big speakers are fine if you want them, but they're not necessary for incredible tone production.