Tube Amp

[rico mando]

you should of heard the guitar player /sales clerk at the store try to talk me out of getting a extension cabinet that only has a 10 inch speaker . he was trying to get me to go to 15inches , good thing i was not interested in any of his his recommendations . i love my mesa boogie 5:25 express with the ten inch speaker worth checking out if you can afford one . though i do use a 5 string so it put out a little more bottom end .

[Ignatius]

Take a look at all the really high-end audiophile speaker systems out there. . . .

The only problem with this comparison is that you can't use your high audio system as an amplifier for an instrument, unless you wish to have a formerly high-end audiophile speaker system. Instrument amplifier speakers and stereo system speakers are meant to do two different sorts of work so the comparison isn't quite as helpful.

I hear your concern about speaker size, Charlieshafer, and I probably should add that obviously, the quality of the speaker matters more than the size. That being said, I would prefer not to have a guitar or mandolin lose any bottom end and would like to increase it when possible, which is why the larger speaker appeals to me. This is why the old Fender Bassman served as a great guitar amp in the old days: the big speaker was a huge part of its full sound. As you noted, I was talking about warmth and lushness because, as I understood it, Ed is not looking for exact reproduction but for an amp that will add to an altered tone. An 8" cheap speaker in a cheap amp is not going to do that, and this was my point about the AC4TV: on its lowest power settings, it is a tinny, fizzy amp to my ear.

The Rivera Sedona, which many consider the gold standard of acoustic reproduction in a tube amp, only offers 12" and 15" options. True, it is primarily a guitar amp, but there is a degree of low end that can be lost with an 8" speaker.

Ignatius

[Charlieshafer]

Well, cheap speakers sound cheap no matter what size, but I do get your point. Probably the most important aspect here is to get a tube amp that's not too powerful, as you want to be able to turn the volume up to really get the tubes heated up; that's where the real warmth of a tube amp is, pushed almost to the distortion level. That way you can get the warmth and the accuracy. Newer 8" drivers have no difficulty going down to 100hz, with a perfectly flat response curve, so the little drivers can really do it if one wants.

But, I do agree that at lower levels the larger drivers do give you the warmth everyone really likes.

[Ed Goist]

Thanks to everyone for the great on-going discussion.
Very helpful and informative.

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

I just can't resist adding more.
I have found 10"' speakers do it the best for my emando (stock, but very nicely set up, Mandobird). The 12"'s are nice, but unnecessary. You can mic the amp to the PA for whatever else you want at a big gig. The Rivera amps mentioned are great for tone. But truly, you will have to listen to each amp and decide.
Tubes are quite different, manufacturer to manufacturer. A particular tube amp is not a fixed equation. It can be modified, and the tubes can be changed out, and even biased differently. But you do have to start with what appeals to your ear. Quality build and circuitry is the first priority. Size (weight/watts) next. After that, it all falls into place in the fine tuning department if you make the effort.

[Ignatius]

Well, cheap speakers sound cheap no matter what size, but I do get your point. Probably the most important aspect here is to get a tube amp that's not too powerful, as you want to be able to turn the volume up to really get the tubes heated up; that's where the real warmth of a tube amp is, pushed almost to the distortion level. That way you can get the warmth and the accuracy. Newer 8" drivers have no difficulty going down to 100hz, with a perfectly flat response curve, so the little drivers can really do it if one wants.

But, I do agree that at lower levels the larger drivers do give you the warmth everyone really likes.

I took a look at John Jorgenson's website and found the small amp that you described as part of his setup--very impressive! I'm really glad you chimed in on this thread. I don't think the Schertler amps are what Ed is looking for, though, because they seem built for perfect acoustic reproduction. Ed seems more interested in something that will bring overdrive, warmth, and additional character to his tone (if I am understanding his comments up to this point). The Schertler, however, seems perfect as an immensely portable acoustic amp.

I've been considering the Rivera Sedona for several months because it is wired specifically to do both acoustic and electric (two different channels, the acoustic one with a special additional tweeter), but it is expensive and a beast (sixty pounds, I think!). With the Schertler as an option, I could seriously explore the samamp for my electric guitar needs and find a separate acoustic amp--for less money and less weight.

Thanks again, Charlie!

Ignatius

[Ed Goist]

...snip...Ed seems more interested in something that will bring overdrive, warmth, and additional character to his tone (if I am understanding his comments up to this point).

Exactly correct.
I'd also say I'm looking for the tonal "sophistication" or "class" associated with a tube amp. This is a hard thing to describe, but I think users of tube amps will know exactly what I'm talking about.

[Charlieshafer]

Hey Ignatius, Glad one of my ramblings was helpful. They are a beautiful amp, but no, they can't take the place of a big ol' paper-coned tube-toned powered monster. The Sedona is a very interesting amp for the reasons you listed. If you really want to get all clique-ey bputiquey, make sure you drop names like Train Wreck or Dumble. You rarely rarely see them played, and almost never for sale. This puts them in the category of, "are they really that good or is it mystique? Does it really matter, as so few will know anyway that there's no point?"

Ed, for sophistication, hopefully you can try some of the Mesa's. Carrs or Swarts. Egnator does a great job at a lower price point. I do sympathize and agree completely with the "try before you buy" attitude. Hopefully there's some good stuff close by you; the smaller-maker combos provide some amazing tone.

[mandofarmdog]

I run all my guitars -- teles, les paul and a 63 Epiphone Century -- through a Gibson GA 15 R. These are class A, just like the Vox AC 15, and they sound great clean, but dig into the instrument a little, and you can make them growl. You can find these occasionally on eBay. They are the same amp as the Trace Elliot Vellocette. If you can find one, it is worth the look. They are very minimalist in features: 1 volume, 1 tone, 1 reverb control, a bright switch, and a switch to go from triode to pentode modes.

[Ed Goist]

I spent several fun hours today demoing 5 different small combo tube amps. Here are a few general comments, followed by my short reviews and ratings for each amp (I'll rate them on a 10 point scale).

General Comments:
* I really don't like shopping in a box store like Guitar Center (GC). Unfortunately, when you want to try several different products at one time, during the same visit, you really don't have much of a choice.
* I really like shopping at small, private, locally-owned, specialty shops. Of course, the selection is much more limited, but the overall experience is vastly superior. Patronize these folks whenever possible!
* The staff at both retailers was knowledgeable, gracious and helpful. This made the day very enjoyable.
* A solid-bodied, electric mandolin sure attracts a crowd at a GC. Most (all?) of the other patrons were very interested in the instrument and asked a lot of questions (with very few folks knowing what it was). The e-mando seemed to be of particular interest to all of the young ladies in the store...Why didn't I start playing one of these 30 years ago?

Amps Played, Reviews, and Ratings (1-10):

Orange Tiny Terror 15W/7W 1x10 Tube Combo
The most expensive of the amps I played today and by a wide margin the least inspiring. Did I just hit a bad example? Sounds decidedly non-tube-like "Are you sure this isn't a solid state amp?"...Bad question to keep having to ask. Had the switchable Pentode (15 Watts)/Triode (7 Watts) modes, but the 7W setting just sounded weak and thin. Okay I guess, but didn't sound as good as my current amp (Line6 Spider III 75). I was unimpressed. Rating: 5/10

Fender Hot Rod Series Pro Junior III 15W 1x10 Tube Combo
Well now that's more like it! Fat, rich tube tone across the board. Wonderful cleans and decent (but not exceptional) overdrive. Sounded much better once things warmed-up. A very classic sounding amp. Looks good too, with nice hardware. If you're looking for a classic, rich, clean rock sound (a la Clapton, Joe Walsh, & Mark Knopfler) this amp would be a good choice. Lacked a good over-driven sound at low volume (an absolute must for me). Still, recommended. Rating: 7.5/10

Egnator 'Tweaker' 112 15W 1x12 Tube Combo
Good, solid, tube sound. Nice appearance, very good speaker. Lots of switches, buttons and knobs (which generally turns me off), but this one certainly offers a nice range of tones. Fat, rich, & warm. Has a nice over-drive, even at moderate volume. A really good choice for a player needing all sorts of different tones from his or her amp. Seems to be a really good value. Recommended. Rating: 8/10

Vox AC15C1 15W 1x12 Tube Combo
Oh yea, this is what we're talking' about! Has a very classic vibe and sound. Rich and warm with a wonderful clean setting. Also has a very nice over-driven crunch to it, that has a thick compressed character. On top of the great tube tone, this amp features very good reverb and tremolo capabilities. Really a lot to like here! The more I played it, the more the tone reminded my of David Gilmour. How's that for a recommendation? I'm impressed. Highly recommended. 8.5/10

Blackheart 'Handsome Devil' BH15-112 15W/7W 1x12 Tube Combo
Oh my! Absolutely fantastic tone with somewhat remarkable volume (I found it hard to play on the 15W setting). Has a wonderful character at 7W...and I mean wonderful. Exceptional bright clean tones (think Pat Metheny) and rich, fat "Billy Gibbons like" overdrive (even at low volume). Moreover, there is 'dark' character to the tone when the bass and presence are cranked (think Tony Iommi). The very high treble notes on the e-mando (say higher that the 7th fret B on the E-string) sounded much cleaner on this amp (with no clipping) than they did on the other amps. In addition, this amp seems perfectly balanced across the mandolin's tonal range. Sounds much more expensive than any of the other amps. A remarkable value. Very highly recommended. Rating: 9.5/10

In closing, there are two other amps I've made arrangements to try (an Epiphone and a Crate), but I don't expect they will even come close to the Blackheart...

I think it's time to sell the Line6 and take things to another level.

Thanks again to everyone who has posted here helping me with my search.

[Charlieshafer]

Nice review, Ed. That sort of input is really helpful. I'm thinking the Blackheart is it, then, the others won't match up, I'm sure. Glad you liked the Egnator. I played around with a friend's for a bit and thought it was a good pice of gear for the cash, and pretty versatile. And, though it's supposed to not matter, I liked the looks. I'm also a sucker for lots of little knobs, even if I can't figure them all out.

[rico mando]

Here is something to consider http://www.avid.com/US/products/Eleven-Rack. granted they are trying to emulate a real amp so i will agree the real amp is better . but they are getting close and its cheaper than owning 13 amps and 17 effects pedals . plus microphones and pro tools . any way they do a better job of explaining what it does than i do . so do not ask me question about it as i do not own one or have not tried one either . as far as i can tell some people love it and others think it sounds like garbage . same about the "axe fx" better but more expensive http://www.fractalaudio.com/

[Mark Seale]

Just to clear one little tidbit up about small amps, the small amp John Jorgensen and Jason Anick are using on stage is http://www.philjonespuresound.com/products/?id=13

[Tom Wright]

It's not clear to me if there is any agreement here on what tone is wanted. I look for a guitar sound and guitar-amp tone, meaning not tinkly mandolin high end. For that I would mike or piezo an acoustic mando.

Another issue is whether tone means distortion at some level. The warm tube tone usually implies less crackly highs, due to lousy high-frequency response, but also, in the case of Fender amps, sharp drop in high end from the Jensen speakers. This means that the dynamic value of clipping (sustain and controlled attacks) is achieved without obvious crackle and dirt.

Another issue is the transition from clean to clipped, thus the Class A devotees. Fender amps are Class B, various design issues are involved, etc. I remember a fellow rocker in the 70s playing through a blacktop Deluxe Reverb, with JBL speaker. Very crackly transistor sound even though it was a tube amp.

In the 70s I used a modified Twin, channel-channel overdrive, adding MXR distortion for sustain. Nice, but who needs that kind of burden?

The overdrive/distorton pedals available now are really good, whether digital or analog. I am ready to order a pedal from AnalogMan (waiting list) called King of Tone, that has two channels for switching between presets. All analog, long battery life. That company has various distortion/overdrive choices, including my current pedal, a Maxon Sonic Distortion.

Speakers are a huge issue, most are brighter in tone than 60s cones. For a sweet, fat tone, the Celestion 12s are great, and they have a 10 called the Greenback that is not hard and crackly. You can buy the traditional Fender/Jensen but they are limited in their tone range. I use a neodynium-magnet Celestion 12, rather bright but I like the 4.5 pound weight.

Maybe it's too complicated for some, but separating the jobs of power/weight, basic tone color, and overdrive/distortion, frees you from expensive and clunky boutique tube amps. BTW, their very inefficient power consumption is not a "green" approach. I recommend something handy and compact, install the speaker of choice (I like 12s), apply extra distortion and EQ as needed. For low noise I'm using a K&K "Pure Preamp" (intended for acoustic bass players, I think) as outboard EQ. But the Boss EQ pedals are handy, and can dramatically change the color.

The belief that tube watts are louder is not founded on reality. Some amps have a less-obvious distortion happening, and thus seem loud, compared to a crackly solid-state amp that needs to stay away from clipping. But comparing ratings is another issue, since my Crate head's optimistic 150 watts is taken at 10% distortion. Really more like 100 watts. Old Fender amps were measured at 5%, RMS, I think.

[Ignatius]

Maybe it's too complicated for some, but separating the jobs of power/weight, basic tone color, and overdrive/distortion, frees you from expensive and clunky boutique tube amps. BTW, their very inefficient power consumption is not a "green" approach.

Tom--

I'm not sure what you mean here. In the first quoted sentence, are you suggesting that one should simply add pedals, rather than look for tone or gain style within the amp? And along with the second sentence, it almost sounds like you are claiming that boutique amps are--by definition--inefficient, expensive, and clunky.

Truly not trying to start an argument here; I'm trying to understand because I'm trying to figure out my next amplification move.

Ignatius

[Tom Wright]

More like I am likely to get an argument, but don't really intend it. I just feel that going the boutique route is both expensive and burdensome, and not necessary. Lower-cost tube amps may be fine, but I think the key is the speaker, the EQ, and the distortion response. All can be achieved in various ways. And tube amps just weigh so darn much, heavy transformers for power supply and output coupling, heavy box to protect the fragile tubes, etc.

The above does require experimentation, so maybe not the easy route for a starter. But I would not recommend an expensive boutique amp for starters, either.

[foldedpath]

I've been considering the Rivera Sedona for several months because it is wired specifically to do both acoustic and electric (two different channels, the acoustic one with a special additional tweeter), but it is expensive and a beast (sixty pounds, I think!). With the Schertler as an option, I could seriously explore the samamp for my electric guitar needs and find a separate acoustic amp--for less money and less weight.

I've owned a Rivera Sedona since they first came out, years ago when it was a bit less expensive. Here's some thoughts on it.

First, it's truly the only dual-purpose tube amp that can be used for electric instruments and acoustic instruments with pickups, due to the tweeter that can be kicked in or out of circuit. It has a feedback notch filter too, which you'd never find on a standard electric guitar amp. It's hand-wired, built like a tank, and heavy (I have the original 12" combo version). It's not a good bedroom amp. At 55 watts, it's very loud when driven hard enough to saturate the power tubes. The master volume lets you get a distorted preamp tone at lower volume, which isn't quite the same thing, but may work for some folks.

A while back, I replaced the original speaker -- a JBL with a huge, heavy magnet that's really more of a PA speaker -- with a lighter-weight Celestion. That shaves a bit of weight off the amp, and shifts the tone a little more towards traditional electric guitar amp tone without compromising the acoustic amp side very much. I think it took about 8 lbs. off the weight, but it's still an amp I think twice about carrying out of the house for gigs. In fact, it's been years since I've gigged with it. I use it now mainly as a studio recording amp.

For electric tones on a gig, or just fooling around at home, I use a Roland VG-99 that covers a lot of sonic ground and doesn't have the weight (I know digital amp modelers are heresy in a discussion like this, but it really does sound great). On the acoustic side I've got a nice compact PA system. So, the Sedona fits in an awkward middle ground for me now, and doesn't get used much. But I'll still never sell it. It's nice to go back to it every once in a while, and remind myself what a good tube amp sounds like.

Okay, that's a bit of a diversion from what Ed is looking for, but I thought I'd mention it since others here are looking at the Sedona as a possibility. It's a great amp, but you have to really need that tweeter to make it worthwhile.

On the general topic of tube amps, I like the Fender Blues Jr. as a decent amp if the budget is limited. Nice and simple, good tone. In the boutique area, I like the Carr Mercury a lot. Sweet little amp. I keep trying to find an excuse to get one, but I'm just not playing that style of music right now, and I have a lot of other bases covered between the Sedona and the VG-99. Ah well, maybe one day...

[Ignatius]

Hi foldedpath--

Thanks for the comments on the Sedona. Your thoughts on its practice volume sound are VERY helpful to me. I was hoping the master volume would work miracles, but I may need to look elsewhere--and it sounds like the Sedona's weight truly is a huge problem.

Ignatius

[Mike Bromley]

I up-biased a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe with some Sovtek 3881's in place of the 6L6's, which warmed it up nicely, as well as raising its distortion threshold. A simple fix for those so inclined to tinker. I also tried running an old blacktop Super Reverb with a 12AU7 preamp tube in the vibrato channel. That worked fairly well too.

[lukmanohnz]

Over years of searching for the ultimate tube amp tone, I've learned two things: 1) overdrive from the output tubes will always sound sweeter than preamp tube distortion; and 2) the fewer things between my guitar and amp, the better the tone (though I've rarely gotten good tone without at least a cable between the guitar and amp ;-). These insights have led me to using amps with the lowest overall power that is still practical for the gig. I have three main amps - a mid 80's Fender Champ 12 practice amp (1-6L6 output tube, Class A), a Marshall DSL20 (2-EL84s, Class A-B [I think]), and a Gibson GA30RVS (4-EL84s in stereo, 2 per side, Class A, from the original UK Trace Elliot factory). The output tube type does seem to make a difference to my ear, though that said, I have heard some great amp tones and some horrible amp tones from the same type of output tube. I gravitate toward EL84s for their old-school bluesy vibe. Speakers also make a huge difference, and Celestions have always sounded better to my ear than just about any other brand. I can't stand bad clean tone, so I listen to the amp's clean sound first. If it's not there for me, I move on, because there is no pedal in the world that will make a bad sounding clean channel sound any better. I prefer amps with a good, serviceable reverb on board - one less foot pedal between my guitar and amp! If you liked that Marshall you tried early on, I suggest you try out one of the lower wattage UK-make Marshalls. They are still one of the best amp companies in the business, and To my ear there is a distinct character to the Marshall amps that is uniquely their own. Unfortunately, the DSL20 is no longer in production, but eBay always has several listings for used ones. They are not highly collectible, so the street prices are very reasonable, and these are incredible-sounding amps for the money. Every Trace Elliot I ever played was astounding. The Gibson GA30RVS is about the best clean tone I've ever heard in an amp. Sadly, the design changed when Gibson brought the production stateside, and the US made Gibsons don't have the same ballsy punch, to my ear anyway. Again, these early Gibsons are readily available on the used market for quite modest sums owing to their (inexplicable) lack of collectibility. If you can find a used Trace Elliot Velocette, those were also unbelievable tone machines. In the end your ear is the only thing that matters - find the amp that puts a s#*t-eating grin on your face and then just plug in and play. Happy hunting!

[Charlieshafer]

Just to clear one little tidbit up about small amps, the small amp John Jorgensen and Jason Anick are using on stage is http://www.philjonespuresound.com/products/?id=13

Last time John came around, we were hooking up his Schertler, and I still believe he endorses them, unless something has changed over the past couple of months.

[Mark Seale]

Not sure on the endorsement front, but his quintet was traveling with these when they came through Austin for a gig and a private party in May. Could be the size and scope of the venue, but the sound was incredible.

[Perry]

Have you checked out Carrs? (www.carramps.com) NFI. A friend of mine swears by these. I've played through them (guitar and mando) and they really are impressive. Lots of tonal options even at low volume. They're also hand wired but somewhat less expensive than the Cat-5 will set you back.

My Carr Rambler is not so much an an amp as it is an "instrument" Incredible clean tune amp tones. Handles pedals well.

[Ed Goist]

An Ultimate Boutique Amp: The Frankenstein 17

Well; I have had an unexpected, yet delightful plot twist in my search for a small tube amp!

As part of my search, I decided to get the advice of the radio engineer with whom I work. He is a very knowledgeable and multifaceted guy. He was a bass trombone player with our local symphony for over two decades, and before serving as the RF engineer at the radio station he was an audio engineer. Needless to say he knows his stuff about amps, speakers, sound and music.

When I told him that I was looking for a small (up to 30W) all-tube amp, he first acknowledged that there is no substitute for tubes, but then he told me about a tube amp that he had built many years ago for one of his sons who was playing guitar at the time. His son had lost interest in guitar playing many years ago, and the amp was just sitting in his basement collecting dust. He offered to clean it up, and give it to me to play through to see if I liked it.

Well; he gave it to me at work the other day, and I was absolutely floored by the cool retro vibe! He built the amp into an old portable phonograph frame, and even used the original, detachable 6X9 speaker cabinets for the speakers! The amp itself is based on an old Fender Princeton amp, and the inner workings of the amp are on display as one plays through it! As a result of this delightful feature, I have dubbed her 'The Frankenstein 17'. Here are her specs:

The Frankenstein-17
* Circuitry based on a 1964 Fender Princeton amp
* Wattage: ~ 17 watts
* Controls: volume, treble, midrange, bass, presence
* Custom cabinet
* Two parallel outputs (8 ohms)
* Two 6X9 cone speakers.

And here are some pics:







Though I am without an e-mando for a couple of months, I strapped on the Telecaster tonight and fired Frankenstein up! This thing is an untamed beast, especially when she warms up.

The Tele sounded fantastic through this amp, especially on hard driving stuff like early Stones, early Who and The Ramones. I could not believe how loud and aggressive this amp is (never got the volume much past 2). It is so much more raw and untamed than the modern tube amps I've tried...When playing through this amp one expects a fight to break out any second...It's the amp for me!

Though there is a warm "purr" from this amp as one turns the instrument volume knob up, it really doesn't have an overdrive channel, so I will likely pick-up a nice distortion pedal of some type to run into it.

I will probably also upgrade the speaker set-up. Speaking of which, I'll have to ask my engineer buddy if I can use just one of the parallel outputs, or if I'll need to get two speakers and run them both...My heavens, I can only imagine this thing running into two 12s...Yowzah!

[rico mando]

do not leave it plugged in on stand by when your not using it . my friends had their jam room catch fire and burned up the gear in the room . landlord was not happy either . i think it was a brand name amp that was old and dusty .