Tell me about: mandolin rhythm in Irish trad

[Gelsenbury]

@Bertram:
Thanks, that's much more encouraging! Developing a strong piece to fit in with the session's regular set definitely makes sense. I've just started learning "My darling asleep", which should be a good fit in most places.

A session in my region has helpfully posted its repertoire on the internet, and the members explicitly welcome beginners because they are looking for new blood. The problem now is to find out whether the session still exists ... and how to get to the more remote village pubs here in Kent without a car ...

Gruß ins Ruhrgebiet!

[Bertram Henze]

I've just started learning "My darling asleep", which should be a good fit in most places.

Oh yes, that's a standard one. Goes well with "Tripping up the Stairs" in a set.

and how to get to the more remote village pubs here in Kent without a car ...

A car is advisable even in the densely populated area I live in. It means you cannot drink Guinness the whole night through (I usually switch to non-alcoholic Guinness, i.e. Coke), but it is less disappointing should the wrong people turn up, or none at all, which can never be ruled out with an open session.

Thanks for your perfectly German greeting

[Gelsenbury]

Well, I'm originally from the Ruhrpott too ... been in Kent for an almost scary 14 years and a bit, but still visit home often. So if you can recommend any places for good live music nearby, drop me a PM.

I have a plan to go to one of the Kent sessions next weekend (if it still exists, which I'm inquiring about at the moment), just to listen for the time being ... and perhaps to start talking to people if they seem as welcoming as the website suggests.

[mattdooman]

This has been good info for me as I am looking into attending a session soon (not irish but dulcimer and other acoustic instruments). My question is What are 1 4 and 5 chords? Wow Im a newb.

[shiloh]

I've enjoyed this thread and picked up some good ideas.

The sad part about mandolin playing, for me, is that as much as my heart desires to, I'll never have the ability to play at "session tempo" regarding the melody. It's taken me years to finally admit that to myself. This is the only reason I've mostly abandoned learning Irish tunes and playing in a session. Our local sessions insist you play melody "if you're playing a melody instrument," so that was the door that ultimately shut regarding my participating. I'd love to play some sort of tasteful countermelody or drones or double stops but they will not allow it. So, I'm relegated to not playing, except at home alone for my own enjoyment.

Not to mention that I am currently dealing with hand injuries and playing the mandolin is difficult, even at a slow tempo.... :-(

[Tim2723]

This has been good info for me as I am looking into attending a session soon (not irish but dulcimer and other acoustic instruments). My question is What are 1 4 and 5 chords? Wow Im a newb.

The numbers refer to the relationship of the chords. They are the chords based on the first, fourth, and fifth notes of any given scale. Simply count off the scale on your fingers. For example, in the key of C you would count C,D,E,F,G,A,B. The 1,4,5 chords are C, F, and G. For the G scale count G,A,B,C,D,E,F#, and the chords are G,C,and D. You might find a notation for the 6m (sixth minor) chord as well. To get that simply find the sixth note of the scale and play that chord name in its minor form. For the C scale it's the Am chord, for the G scale it's the Em chord, and so on. Just remember to include sharps or flats as they occur in the scale of choice. For instance, in the key of F, you would count F,G,A,Bb,C,D,E and play the Bb chord, not the B natural as the number four chord.

[michaelpthompson]

The sad part about mandolin playing, for me, is that as much as my heart desires to, I'll never have the ability to play at "session tempo" regarding the melody. It's taken me years to finally admit that to myself. This is the only reason I've mostly abandoned learning Irish tunes and playing in a session. Our local sessions insist you play melody "if you're playing a melody instrument," so that was the door that ultimately shut regarding my participating. I'd love to play some sort of tasteful countermelody or drones or double stops but they will not allow it. So, I'm relegated to not playing, except at home alone for my own enjoyment.

Find a better session, or start your own. I host one at a local music school once a month, where we have all sorts of different musicians, breaking out of the mold of the traditional Irish session. Some sessions are more open than others. If you can't find one that's open to your music, get a friend or two and start your own. It only takes two to begin, if at least one of you can play melody. Then word starts to spread and the fun really begins.

[shiloh]

Hi Celtic Bard,
Thank you for your kindness. Actually, I've thought about trying to start one myself. I do have friends who might be willing to play some. They mostly play other genres, but I'm sure they'd be open to learning more Irish tunes. You're right - if I had only one or two others to play with, it would be a whole lot more interesting - and fun!

Jill

[John Flynn]

Jill

I'm in the same spot you are with trad...only on the other end of the country! I was starting to despair that I could ever play at sessions. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I was lucky enough to find a session that publishes its sets, tunes and arrangements. This is really helpful, both in learning the melodies, but also in playing rhythm on the tunes I haven't yet gotten the melody up to speed on. My strategy has been to play along on rhythm on mandolin on most tunes, but then get up to speed on melody, one tune at a time, on GDAE tenor banjo. This group has been very accepting of that.

A bonus with this session group has been that I've developed a friendship with a couple of the players and we occasionally have smaller, slower sessions at each others' houses from time to time. BTW, the guy who organizes our sessions strongly recommends Band-in-a-Box for getting trad tunes up to speed. I haven't tried it yet, but I plan to.

I've found that I can get up to speed on any of these tunes with enough practice, but it just takes longer than I'm used to. When I was playing old-time, I could get two or three tunes a week up to jam speed. With trad, it's tougher going. But I've determined not to give up on it. I just take it one tune at a time. Thinking about the whole tradition at once is too overwhelming.

[Dagger Gordon]

'A bonus with this session group has been that I've developed a friendship with a couple of the players '

That's a big part of it, or should be.

[shiloh]

"I just take it one tune at a time. Thinking about the whole tradition at once is too overwhelming."

Hi John Flynn,
Thank you so much! Your words are inspiring. Just curious - so, do you also work on the tunes (melody) on the mandolin? You mentioned tenor banjo. I've considered tenor banjo, so wondering your thoughts on melody on the banjo vs. mandolin, and why one over the other? Have you played rhythm on the banjo (such as partial chords, etc.)? I bet that would REALLY be discouraged around here!

I've tried to learn several tunes simultaneously. I'm thinking that might be my first mistake. Not that that's right or wrong, but I think I never quite get any of the tunes under my fingers b/c I'm working on too many. Thus I get discouraged, and none of the tunes get learned up to tempo.

One of my favorite ITM mando players is Marla Fibish. I would love to play like Marla (band is Three Mile Stone. LOVE their CD; produced by John Doyle). Having said that, I do not have her innate ability, and she has been playing for many, many years! Marla is dedicated to the music like no one else I know. And no doubt, she sat in hundreds of sessions, listening, and learning one tune at a time.
Jill
San Diego
p.s. I used to live in Pittsburgh, in Moon, near the airport.

[John Flynn]

Jill

Good questions. I occasionally practice melodies on the mandolin, because I have a couple of travel/beater mandolins and they are a lot more portable than the banjo, so it's easier to take them places I might get in some practice time. But I rarely try to play melody on the mandolin at sessions. My mandolin is loud for a wooden instrument but it just doesn't have enough single-note volume for me to even hear myself play at sessions, much less have anyone else hear me! It can keep up on rhythm, though.

The advantage of tenor banjo for melody is two-fold. First, it has the single-note volume needed for a big session. Second, it is a more accepted trad instrument. I won't even open up the whole discussion of "what's traditional, what's not, and to what degree." But simply put, no one seems to argue whether or not a tenor banjo fits at an Irish session. I don't play much rhythm on it though. I've tried it and I just don't think 17 fret tenor banjos sound that good chording. Hard to describe, but it's kind of a "grating" tone. I limit my rhythm to occasional double stops and some cross picking on airs.

The dixieland players who mostly play chords do it on 21 fret "plectrum" instruments. I think the longer scale allows for more precise intonation and more sustain. But a 21 fret would be hard to play melody on. There are 19 fret tenor banjos that are popular in trad, but I'm not sure how well they work on rhythm.

[Bertram Henze]

The advantage of tenor banjo for melody is two-fold. First, it has the single-note volume needed for a big session. Second, it is a more accepted trad instrument. I won't even open up the whole discussion of "what's traditional, what's not, and to what degree." But simply put, no one seems to argue whether or not a tenor banjo fits at an Irish session. I don't play much rhythm on it though. I've tried it and I just don't think 17 fret tenor banjos sound that good chording. Hard to describe, but it's kind of a "grating" tone. I limit my rhythm to occasional double stops and some cross picking on airs.

The dixieland players who mostly play chords do it on 21 fret "plectrum" instruments. I think the longer scale allows for more precise intonation and more sustain. But a 21 fret would be hard to play melody on. There are 19 fret tenor banjos that are popular in trad, but I'm not sure how well they work on rhythm.

I suspect that while not all Irish musicians were happy with the TB on its first appearance, they eventually got used to it - which is, yes, kind of acceptance.
I think the problem with chording is indeed the lack of sustain, making it an attempt to beat a drum with a bunch of sticks at once.
I used to play melody on a 21-fret, tuned CGDA. I had no problem doing the wide jumps because of the light touch of it - hardly any fretting force required. It was impossible, however, to transfer that technique to my OM later.

I met a group of jazz musicians at a party once, and they suggested a jam; frightened of being caught with the right instrument in the wrong genre, I said "but I can't play dixieland" and almost got beaten for implying dixieland was jazz...

[DougC]

So often it is said that one 'should listen' to the music. What exactly should one listen for regarding rhythm?

Also Jill have you seen Julie Lyonn-Liberman's advice about injuries on D'Addario's website? http://www.thelessonroom.com/LessonR...6&mediaid=8974

What we need is direct electronic access to the brain as in The Matrix. "Ah, now I know how to fly a helicopter in less than a minute".

[John Flynn]

"But I am amazed at the arrogance or let's say just hutzpah of some who think they can do anything with someone's musical gathering." - Doug C.

Well, that brings up another interesting question. Who is the "someone" you're talking about? In other words, who "owns" a musical gathering? If it's at your house, then obviously you own it, no question. If it's an invitation-only event, no matter where it is, I would go so far as to say the inviter probably owns it. But what about a published, open jam or session? It would seem to me the owner of the venue rightfully "owns" the session, for instance, the owner of the bar where the session is held. I mean, the venue owner is the only one in the equation who can cancel or reschedule it, so that makes sense.

I'm amazed at the chutzpah of some people who act like a musical gathering is "theirs" and therefore they can make the rules, when the venue owner does not care, for instance, if you have one rhythm instrument or eight. So then it's not an issue of it being "someone's musical event." It has become an issue of someone trying to impose their idea of musical tradition on someone else. Interestingly, I've never seen problems with the "Trad police" at invitation-only events or events a people's houses. I have only seen them at open sessions where the venue owner clearly did not care one way or another. In my personal experience, it has not always been the organizer of the session or even one of the longest-tenured members who sets themselves up as the "Trad police." It is the just the person with the strongest personality.

[EdSherry]

John F -- I agree that there is often an issue as to "whose session it is." I've seen situations where some overly-assertive 'regular' who does not represent the consensus of the venue and/or the session regulars usurps the role of the "trad police" and contends that a newcomer should not do something, tending to turn the session into an "insider's" session to the detriment of opening the music up to interested musicians. Conversely, I've been to a lot of sessions where a newbie to a 'public' session contends [in effect] "they say it's an 'open' session, therefore there's nobody [other than the landlord] who is formally in charge here, and the landlord isn't complaining about what I'm doing, therefore my opinion is just as good as anyone else's, therefore I'm gonna do what I want to do."


I've been to way too many sessions where the good players, frustrated at the "I'm just as entitled to my opinion as you are / I'm just as entitled to play here as you are" attitude of some clueless newbie, simply stop coming (figuring 'I've got better things to do with my time'), thereby lelading to a "quality death spiral" (the best players stop coming, leading to the average quality falling, leading the next-best tier of players to decide that it isn't worth their time to come, leading to a further reduction in quality, and so on).


It's unfortunately very difficult to walk the fine line to walk between these two positions. The venue's owner "may not care" (and may well not be qualified to evaluate the issue) on a case-by-case basis, but the venue's owner clearly DOES care if the session succeeds or fails.

I wish I had a "magic bullet" to resolve these sorts of issues. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of one. The most self-assertive of the 'incumbent' players [which need not by any means be the best players!] often contend (without justification) that it's "their session." In a public setting, it clearly isn't (as you note, there is a sense in which the venue's owner is the ultimate decision-maker); but there's a sense in which, without their support, the session can degenerate into a "lowest common denominator" session (and possibly die off) if newcomers aren't aware of the standards that "the regulars" aspire to.

[foldedpath]

So often it is said that one 'should listen' to the music. What exactly should one listen for regarding rhythm?

Listen to the way the rhythm is implicit in the melody line, even when there is no accompaniment at all.... just a gaggle of fiddles, flutes, and other melody instruments with nary a guitar in sight. That's where the rhythm is, and it doesn't depend on a "rhythm section." Listen for the pulse in the fiddler's bow, and the flute player's phrasing of breath, and the pulse of the air in the bellows of a concertina or box player.

It's one of the main differences between Irish trad and American music styles, where the melody leans more on a foundation established by rhythm instrument players. One of the hardest things for an OldTime or Bluegrass rhythm player to understand, in my experience, is the way you don't "lead" the rhythm in Irish trad, you follow the rhythm of the melody players. And you do it in a way that doesn't distract what they're going for, rhythmically.

[John Flynn]

Ed

I agree completely. The interesting thing is everything you said applies just as well to bluegrass, old-time and any other kind of "participation music." It is not trad specific as far as I can tell. It really boils down to common courtesy and some idea of common practice at a given session.

It has just been my experience (and others will disagree) that it is more common for newcomers to get run off by the lack of a welcoming attitude than experienced players being forced to quit because of obnoxious newbies. Also, I've rarely (although it does happen) seen a newbie who would not take polite direction from a more experienced player. Newbies tend to be "obnoxious" only because they are trying too hard and no one is giving them helpful suggestions.

[foldedpath]

"But I am amazed at the arrogance or let's say just hutzpah of some who think they can do anything with someone's musical gathering." - Doug C.

Well, that brings up another interesting question. Who is the "someone" you're talking about? In other words, who "owns" a musical gathering? If it's at your house, then obviously you own it, no question. If it's an invitation-only event, no matter where it is, I would go so far as to say the inviter probably owns it. But what about a published, open jam or session? It would seem to me the owner of the venue rightfully "owns" the session, for instance, the owner of the bar where the session is held. I mean, the venue owner is the only one in the equation who can cancel or reschedule it, so that makes sense.

Not all Irish sessions are held in pubs, and yes, some of the best are kitchen sessions in private homes. But a pub session in a commercial establishment often has a leader, or groups of "alpha" players who keep things running smoothly, so it doesn't turn into an open mic night for any drunk who wants to sing a song. The bar owner doesn't want to get involved in this. It's just free entertainment... or at most, free drinks and meals for the players. It's the sessions hosts who keep things running smoothly... sending out reminders on the email list, notifying of weather or holiday cancellations, sometimes maintaining a web site for the session, and so on.

There are about four Irish or "Celtic" sesssions within an hours' drive from where I live, on the Olympic Peninsula side of Puget Sound. All are in bars, or combined bar/restaurants. Three of those sessions are fairly high level, one is more intermediate and a bit more accessible to newbies. All have session leaders who helped get the session rolling, and who act as liasons with the venue owner.

I help host that intermediate session, and we've been at it for less than a year. We have an arrangement with the bar owner that we're going to keep it an Irish trad session. That means, among other things, one guitar player at a time. We're trying to be friendly to newcomers, while also trying not to let it turn into a cowboy song circle. There are plenty of open mics, OldTime jams, and folk song circles in the area for the hordes of strummers around here, and very few Irish trad sessions like this.

From what I've learned in the last several years hanging out around trad players, it seems the best Irish sessions happen when someone is making an effort to keep it focused. It doesn't have to be an alpha leader... just a core group who have a defined goal. When there is a lack of focus or leadership, it falls apart, or turns into something else.

Conversely, I've been to a lot of sessions where a newbie to a 'public' session contends [in effect] "they say it's an 'open' session, therefore there's nobody [other than the landlord] who is formally in charge here, and the landlord isn't complaining about what I'm doing, therefore my opinion is just as good as anyone else's, therefore I'm gonna do what I want to do."

Yep, I've seen that happen too, and it's why we made the effort to try getting this new session established. It can be a difficult balancing act at times, but we have the full support of the bar owner because he likes how we play.... even if it's kinda rough, on some nights.

[foldedpath]

It is not trad specific as far as I can tell. It really boils down to common courtesy and some idea of common practice at a given session.

Some idea of common practice, yes. The problems occur when people want to join Irish trad sessions from other traditions, without understanding the common practice people are shooting for, in the session.

It has just been my experience (and others will disagree) that it is more common for newcomers to get run off by the lack of a welcoming attitude than experienced players being forced to quit because of obnoxious newbies.

Well, I've seen it often enough around here. Three guitar players, all playing at once, can kill an Irish session. That doesn't happen at a Bluegrass or OldTime jam. It's the difference in the nature of the music.

[Bertram Henze]

What we need is direct electronic access to the brain as in The Matrix. "Ah, now I know how to fly a helicopter in less than a minute".

It has its downside, too - imagine sitting in a session and suddenly the player next to you shifts shape and becomes Bill Monroe!

Newbies tend to be "obnoxious" only because they are trying too hard and no one is giving them helpful suggestions.

Really obnoxious people are only those who keep trying too hard (to do the wrong thing) despite everybody giving them helpful suggestions. Those are the only ones in our sessions who get silently expelled with the magic of icy unfriendliness - and even that is not the intentional product of ill will but the automatic effect of our not being able to join with the wrong noise. They can kill a session and leave its dead body behind, but when they're gone it will recover and live again.

[Randi Gormley]

We occasionally field two or three guitars and as many as three bodhrans on some sessions; one of the guitars has been playing Irish for eight years (including workshops with the pros) and plays softly regardless; one finger-picks or strums classic guitar chords and drives me/us nuts, but he also plays a very good bodhran so we deal. Although we're a very welcoming session (we start out beginner and morph after 10 p.m.), most of the guitar players who drift in don't usually come more than once or twice, oddly enough. But what seems to kill a session faster than the occasional rock guitarist who seems confused and bemused by us, is the guy who keeps saying, after every tune we play, 'the rhythm is all wrong, you have to play with more lift! here ...' and pulls out his iPhone and brings up the chieftains or some other professional group so we can hear how it's supposed to be played. Helpful the first five or six times, but it's at the point now where every time he does this, it kills the whole feel of the session and expends all the good will we've built up by playing. He missed last week's session and we had a great time. He was there last night, and we had one of the worst sessions we've had in a long time. Come 10 p.m. and he just talked on and on about how bad we still are ... but he's been part of the group for five years, you can't just freeze him out (for one thing, he doesn't get hints).

[Bertram Henze]

...and pulls out his iPhone and brings up the chieftains or some other professional group so we can hear how it's supposed to be played... ...you can't just freeze him out (for one thing, he doesn't get hints).

Oh, a musical suicide bomber.
Does he actually play an instrument? If yes, does his playing have that "lift"?
I'd ask him to "play for us on your fiddle how it's supposed to sound". If that doesn't help, there's nothing but snatching his iPhone and promising to give it back after the session (unless, of course, it has inadvertently fallen into a glass of Guinness ). Another way would be some service on the web that sends him one text message per minute saying "shut up"; at least a hint he'd get technically.

[Steve L]

I was thinking about this thread this past Sunday. We had a fellow turn up at our session, a whistle player from Britain. He was passing through on business and heard about our session somehow and came down to play. He didn't know a soul and in about 10 minutes he had 8 strangers in a foreign country treating him like an old friend. He played pretty good, was a really nice guy who clearly had understood the dynamics of sessions for years, sat out the tunes he didn't know and shared tunes, jokes and stories with us for 3 hours. He's had this experience all over the world playing Irish music.

This is what's possible if you take the time to know what you're doing. If he'd come in noodling over things he didn't play or demanding to know by whose authority the session was being run, he would have had a markedly different experience and so would myself and my session mates.

[Paul Kotapish]

As I used to tell my students, "Learn a chord, start a band."

I encourage anyone who finds the session scene frustrating to host a musical gathering with a few like-minded souls of roughly comparable ability, start a "band," and actually work on the music in a mindful way rather than just bashing your way through a whole roster of tunes.

It isn't important whether you actually want to do formal gigs or not--opportunities will come you way as you get your music together. The main thing is to have a positive musical experience where you feel like you are growing and learning on a regular basis.

You have to be at any particular musical level to start a "band." What's important is the commitment.

And to tie it back to the original post, you'll have ample opportunity to work out your rhythm and melody parts in the context of a band practice in a way that would never happen at a pub session.

There's an important place for solo woodshedding and informal session playing, but for 40-some years now it's been my experience that I learn more, have more fun, and am prompted to work on my music more when I am committed to a focused musical project.

I used to attend seisuns/sessions on a regular basis--often several times a week--years ago, but at some point I realized that what I really like to do is work on music in a more concentrated manner, and with folks who share roughly the same vision I do for what the music should sound like. These days, whatever musical energy I have goes into playing in the context of bands, and the rehearsals are usually as interesting and fun for me as the performances.

I still like playing impromptu music with players of all levels, and on a good night it can be an incredible high, but I would find it incredibly frustrating if session playing were my primary musical outlet--for all the reasons enumerated in the many articulate posts above.