craic and crunk (krunk)

[Avi Ziv]

Wallace: "Cracking toast, Gromit!"

[JeffD]

There is a great book by Ciaran Carson called "Last Night's Fun: A Book About Irish Traditional Music." He seems to be saying in the passage quoted below, that it is (or was) more commonly written as "crack", and that the Gaelicized "craic" is something of a recent affectation. Or maybe it's just his curmudgeonly take on it:

That sounds so heart breakingly likely it has to be true.

[Avi Ziv]

Last Night's Fun is my favourite book about Irish music

[Bren]

I heard "crack" a lot when I first came to Scotland in 1979. "What's the crack?" "It was great crack" and so on.
It was also common where I worked offshore, among people from Northern Ireland and Liverpool especialy.
I never saw it written "craic" until the Great Plastic Paddy Pub Propagation of the late 80s/early90s or thereabouts, and I am suspicious of any "Gaelic" etymology.
A quick Google of crack/craic will find many complaints about its presumptions of Irishness, but perhaps the best explanation is here:
Mind Your Language

[Tracey]

While we're at it.... it's PecAN, not PeCAN

[lordcaradoc]

Wow, this being the first full post I've read since joining the list. It puts a whole new spin on being a Craicer. (cracker = redneck = good 'ol boy) :D

Best regards,
Tim

[Loretta Callahan]

Hahaha. I can totally relate, as I resemble that remark ~ in its feminine incarnation that is.

Wow, this being the first full post I've read since joining the list. It puts a whole new spin on being a Craicer. (cracker = redneck = good 'ol boy) :D

Just ordered Last Night's Fun, foldedpath! Looks like a good story. Well, it makes sense that some Oxford person would refer to a good storyteller as a liar and boaster. That's what makes a good story ~ I think somebody mixed up embellishment (a few added ornaments) with lying. Silly.

[michaelpthompson]

There is a great book by Ciaran Carson called "Last Night's Fun: A Book About Irish Traditional Music." He seems to be saying in the passage quoted below, that it is (or was) more commonly written as "crack", and that the Gaelicized "craic" is something of a recent affectation. Or maybe it's just his curmudgeonly take on it:

I so had that book once, but I lost it before I had a chance to read it. Won it in a contest. Guess I'll have to pay for a new one now. ;-)

I did look at the various links on this subject, including quotes from Carson, and they make an interesting case for the "Hibernicized" spelling theory. However, I do not yet find it compelling. One guy quotes a bunch of etymological sources to the end that "craic" does not appear in the Irish language before 1977, then one of the commenters quotes two instances from 1963. It may indeed, not be ancient Irish but the case for Anglicization is far from airtight. It may have been a provincial word from a Belfast dialect that did not spread until recently.

Most often, when I've seen it printed (as on the back of a restaurant menu this past weekend), the writers have difficulty expressing the thought in English. They often refer to it as untranslatable, or difficult to translate. If it were originally an English word, this would not be so, so it's hard to imagine it as a repatriated English loan word, despite the lofty proclamations to that effect.

[foldedpath]

Wow, this being the first full post I've read since joining the list. It puts a whole new spin on being a Craicer. (cracker = redneck = good 'ol boy) :D

Best regards,
Tim

Hi Tim, welcome to the forum. I'm a full-blooded "Florida Cracker" (2nd generation Miami Florida native), which I think is a regional subdivision of the southern Cracker thing. So we have yet another way this term is used here, in the USA.

Egad! I just saw there's a Wikipedia page on Florida crackers. On that page it says "Spaniards in Florida called them “Quáqueros,” a corruption of the English word “Quaker,” which the Spanish used to contemptuously refer to any Protestant." So maybe the southern Cracker thing is a case of parallel evolution? Or something....

Now I'm up on the Olympic Peninsula of Washington state, not that far from Bainbridge. Or Portland, for that matter. How do us Southern crackers end up in this cold, wet climate anyway?

[SincereCorgi]

If it were originally an English word, this would not be so, so it's hard to imagine it as a repatriated English loan word, despite the lofty proclamations to that effect.

They don't strike me as lofty proclamations, just the usual sort of thing you see when people try to establish the etymology of a word. English isn't homogenous, there's no reason people that aren't locals would understand all the shades and nuances of a northern dialect expression- for example, I have only have a hazy version of what people from Boston mean when they describe something as 'mint', but I don't claim that makes it an ancient Wampanoag word that has remarkably survived to the modern day.

For what it's worth, here's a Gaelic etymology dictionary from 1877 (although I don't know how 'Gaelic' it is) that suggests it meant something like 'gossip' or 'boasting' at the time:

http://books.google.com/books?id=wbg...mology&f=false

[Bertram Henze]

mheall, thead mhud na baoigh theagh phoirst mhord thead as s'pealt daoiphareannedlaogh toudh louc aeraois...

[Bren]

It seems if people +want+ to believe "craic" is original Irish Gaelic, nothing will dissuade them. I don't believe it is either Irish or Gaelic and even it it was, there is no good reason for spelling it "craic" in English except for disambiguation with crack cocaine .

[Eddie Sheehy]

I think Bertram hit the nail squarely on the head there... Zum Wohl, Bertram.

[lordcaradoc]

Hi Tim, welcome to the forum. I'm a full-blooded "Florida Cracker" (2nd generation Miami Florida native), which I think is a regional subdivision of the southern Cracker thing. So we have yet another way this term is used here, in the USA.

Egad! I just saw there's a Wikipedia page on Florida crackers. On that page it says "Spaniards in Florida called them “Quáqueros,” a corruption of the English word “Quaker,” which the Spanish used to contemptuously refer to any Protestant." So maybe the southern Cracker thing is a case of parallel evolution? Or something....

Now I'm up on the Olympic Peninsula of Washington state, not that far from Bainbridge. Or Portland, for that matter. How do us Southern crackers end up in this cold, wet climate anyway?

Foldedpath, Thanks for the welcome.

Actually, while I was born in Phoenix, I grew up in Portland and moved back to the Pacific NW last summer from Ohio. Never should have left. :D

They don't strike me as lofty proclamations, just the usual sort of thing you see when people try to establish the etymology of a word. English isn't homogenous, there's no reason people that aren't locals would understand all the shades and nuances of a northern dialect expression- for example, I have only have a hazy version of what people from Boston mean when they describe something as 'mint', but I don't claim that makes it an ancient Wampanoag word that has remarkably survived to the modern day.

For what it's worth, here's a Gaelic etymology dictionary from 1877 (although I don't know how 'Gaelic' it is) that suggests it meant something like 'gossip' or 'boasting' at the time:

I have only to offer a quote a friend of mine uses in his E-mail:

"English doesn't borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over the head and rifles through their pockets for loose grammar" by James Nicoll (paraphrased)

[michaelpthompson]

"English doesn't borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over the head and rifles through their pockets for loose grammar" by James Nicoll (paraphrased)

I so love that quote. It's perfect.

What I meant by "lofty proclamations" is all the righteous huffing and offense that our sacred tradition is profaned by a fake loan word that's not traditional Gaelic. It may be so, it may not, but from the discussions I've seen, the debunkers have just as much of an emotional stake in the discussion as those they deride for inadvertently debasing the language.

SincereCorgi, I especially enjoyed your link to the old Gaelic reference. I've often heard craic defined with a base in conversation, and this would seem to reinforce that. It also casts doubt on the idea that the word came into Irish from American English in the 1970s. Your rational discussion of the pros and cons is refreshing and encouraging.

[ampyjoe]

I agree with Bren on this. Wikipedia has a pretty good explanation (I know wikipedia isn't a absolute guarantee of correctness but it's often pretty good and in this case I agree). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craic

And a big reason why the spelling had to change - "Ceol agus Crack" just doesn't look right does it?

[Eddie Sheehy]

Except I remember it being used in the 60's... Dominic Behan wrote McAlpines Fusliliers for the Dubliners who prefaced the song with "poetry" from Dominic:
'Twas in the year of '39 when the sky was full of lead
When Hitler was headin' for Poland and Paddy for Hollyhead
Come all you pincher laddies and you long-distance men
Don't ever work for MacAlpine, for Wimpey or John Laing
For you'll stand behind a mixer still your skin has turned to tan
And they'll say "Good on you, Paddy" with your boat fare in your hand
The crack/craic (spell it however you want) was good in Cricklewood but they wouldn't leave the crown
There was glasses flyin' and Biddy's cryin' sure Paddy was goin' to town
Oh mother dear I'm over here and I never will come back
What keeps me here is the rake of beer, the women and the crack/craic (spell it however you want)
For I come from the County Kerry the land of eggs and bacon
And if you think I'll eat your fish and chips by Jaysus you're mistakin'

I believe that it is from this poem that CRACK/CRAIC and RAKE (quantity of beer) entered everyday use in Ireland...
But regardless of how it was introduced, it is now part and parcel of Irish Culture and like most other parts of Irish Culture will be included in sean-nos stories for years to come as if the phrase had been uttered by Conchubar MacNessa or Fionn Mac Cumhall...

[michaelpthompson]

That sounds more like it! After Fionn mac Cumhaill defeated the Scottish giant, he said, "That was good craic!" and I'm sure Conchobar said the same thing after the party at Cullen's house. In fact, Cuchullain probably played the mandolin at that party, didn't he?

[Loretta Callahan]

'Twas in the year of '39 when the sky was full of lead
When Hitler was headin' for Poland and Paddy for Hollyhead
Come all you pincher laddies and you long-distance men
Don't ever work for MacAlpine, for Wimpey or John Laing
For you'll stand behind a mixer still your skin has turned to tan
And they'll say "Good on you, Paddy" with your boat fare in your hand
The crack/craic (spell it however you want) was good in Cricklewood but they wouldn't leave the crown
There was glasses flyin' and Biddy's cryin' sure Paddy was goin' to town
Oh mother dear I'm over here and I never will come back
What keeps me here is the rake of beer, the women and the crack/craic (spell it however you want)
For I come from the County Kerry the land of eggs and bacon
And if you think I'll eat your fish and chips by Jaysus you're mistakin'

I believe that it is from this poem that CRACK/CRAIC and RAKE (quantity of beer) entered everyday use in Ireland...
But regardless of how it was introduced, it is now part and parcel of Irish Culture and like most other parts of Irish Culture will be included in sean-nos stories for years to come as if the phrase had been uttered by Conchubar MacNessa or Fionn Mac Cumhall...

[Bertram Henze]

'Twas in the year of '39 when the sky was full of lead
When Hitler was headin' for Poland and Paddy for Hollyhead
Come all you pincher laddies and you long-distance men
Don't ever work for MacAlpine, for Wimpey or John Laing
For you'll stand behind a mixer still your skin has turned to tan
And they'll say "Good on you, Paddy" with your boat fare in your hand
The crack/craic (spell it however you want) was good in Cricklewood but they wouldn't leave the crown
There was glasses flyin' and Biddy's cryin' sure Paddy was goin' to town
Oh mother dear I'm over here and I never will come back
What keeps me here is the rake of beer, the women and the crack/craic (spell it however you want)
For I come from the County Kerry the land of eggs and bacon
And if you think I'll eat your fish and chips by Jaysus you're mistakin'

This is best consumed when served by unforgettable Ronnie Drew:

[Loretta Callahan]

Ok, Mr. H. ..... that was just too good. Couldn't almost not handle the craic!!

[John Kelly]

In Scotland, at least in the west and highland areas, the word is used quite regularly and I would write it as "crack" rather than the Irish "craic". We use it in more than one way, as in enjoying someone's conversation and stories would be "enjoying the crack" and often in impromptu sessions we end up doing more talking than playing and might say that the crack was good.

Loretta, with a name like Callahan you are not far from your Celtic roots. I am from the west coast of Scotland and my birthplace was in Campbeltown, a small fishing and farming town on the Kintyre peninsula which is only about 20 miles from Rathlin Island and the Northern Irish (County Antrim) coast - it makes my surname, Kelly, interesting as is suggests Irish roots and the cross-migration between Antrim and the south-west of Scotland was much greater than history seems to chronicle.

I have really enjoyed all the craic this thread has generated.

[Bren]

Perhaps John, you're related to Kelly From the Isle of Man where apparently The Crack Was 90, according to Paddy Reilly - or Christy Moore if you prefer.

[Eddie Sheehy]

...or Kelly, the Boy from Killane...

[Jim MacDaniel]

This is by far the most enlightening and entertaining thread I've read for a while, ripe with memorable lines and phrases. Given the new (to me) meaning of the word tab that I've learned here, I now can say that I've been tab-free for 30 years and counting -- and a craic habit isn't necessarily a bad thing.