Is it the real?!?

[HoGo]

A few years ago I had the pleasure of owning and restoring a 1987 Sargent mandolin. During that process I started a thread asking for information about Cliff and his mandolins. The response was overwhelming and I as I absorbed everything that was sent to me I became aware of how much people who knew him cared about him and a sense of how many friends Cliff had. I would have loved to have met him.

I can't attempt answer your question without seeing the mandolin but here is a picture taken from Cliff's shop that I received that may help. The lighter colored mandolin is the 1987 that I worked on although it looked much different when I got it. From what I remember, one of the apparent Loars was a reworked F4 while the other was the real deal. The F4 heal button was the giveaway on that one. I'll try to find a picture of the backs.

Gail, I see no Loar in the pics. The one on the left is apparently reworked F-4 (headstock, f holes slanted more than a Loar). The one in the center is copy, the f holes are wrong, too curved, the scroll ridge is too far from edge and goes inward towards end while on Loars it goes closer to edge, the f/b extension is straight, not curved. The curve on bass side from nut to headstock is not correct. The trussrod cover is not authentic. There is too wide crosspiece on the bass side shifting the scroll too far from neck.
I guess that's enough to tell it's not a real deal.

[HoGo]

I also have feeling that the mandolin Cliff S is holding on the birthday photo is DMM... The headstock has the feel of the CNC inlay, extension is straight, scroll shape consistent with modern Gibsons.
Gail are you sure he really owned a Loar? I know several very good violinmakers who gave "real" Strads to customers for comparison to their instruments. The Strads were actually very good fakes that they (or someone else) made. Ordinary customer wouldn't find out the truth...

[RichieK]

Cliff was a really great guy. I was on his list before he passed away. He told me that he could do a Virzi, if I wanted. Another wonderful person is Gail Hester, and she did a great job on the '87 Sargent.

[Jim Ferguson]

Yep, that's rule # 1 in my house too. (And If she's wrong, refer to rule #1.)

Yes indeed....:-) Same in my house......in fact, when my wife wants my opinion she gives it to me!!!!!!!! ;-)
Peace,
Jim

[Lynn Dudenbostel]

I only had the good fortune to meet and visit with Cliff one time, and that was at IBMA in Louisville some years back. Larry Wexer flew down and rode up there with me. He had two Loars with him that weekend and handed one to me and said "you take this one for the weekend". So, I was standing in line waiting to buy my ticket at the Gault, and this older gentleman came up and inquired what was in the case, so I told him. He said he had one and invited me over to see it. Then he introduced himself. Of course, I knew who he was and his reputation for building great mandolins. He showed me his Loar, and as I remember, it did have a Virzi. He told me he'd taken an Exacto razor saw and cut one of the feet free of the top, but left the Virzi in the instrument. Cliff said it really opened it up. So, unless my memory is way off, Cliff did indeed have a real Loar with a Virzi.

By the way Blindboy... that photo of Popcorn Sutton in your avatar was taken by my brother!

Lynn

[craigw]

I knew Cliff for several years and feel privileged to have been his friend. Every year when I would arrive at the Fathers Day Festival in Grass Valley, CA Cliff would bring his Loar and his latest mando build and we'd visit at length. When I first started thinking about getting into building, Cliff invited me to spend some time with him. I lived about 300 miles away but went up to Sacramento and spent three wonderful days with Cliff and his wife. They treated me like a king, with great home cooking and a place to stay in the guest room. My thought was that I could just hang out and observe Cliff in "hands on" bulding but the first two days Cliff just wanted to visit and tell stories. (Cliff had been a WWII veteran and a few years before I met him he'd fallen off a roof and become partially paralyzed. It was absolutely remarkable that he was able to do anything at all with his physical limitastions, let alone finely craft Loar style mandolins and that is a testament to his unbelievable grit and detrmination. Cliff was great guy and always a real gentleman. I still miss him). I recall going with him across the street to visit with a fellow who built custom chairs and furniture from exotic hardwoods and he shipped them all over the country. We also made a trip out to Michael Lewis' shop in Grass Valley where we checked out Michael's operation. It wasn't until the day I had to leave that Cliff began to seriously talk (never did see him in action) about mandolin construction and I was able to take some copious notes.
Cliff did have a Loar that I had played on many occasions. At some point in time someone had done a ctscan or some such testing that produced about 22 pie slice pictures of the sound chamber of his Loar. Cliff made copies for me (which I still have) and I was later able to piece them together and diagram the tone bar positioning and later make a template that I have used it in laying out the tone bars for all the F models I have made thus far.
I don't recall Cliff having a Virzi in that Loar and certainly a Virzi doesn't show up on ctscan but maybe Cliff could have had another Loar, I don't know? I do know, however, that Cliff was a student of the Loar and tried to stay within a gnat's eyelash of making his own mandolins just like a Loar and could have recreated a Virzi if he had wanted. Before Cliff died he had started to partner with Dan Bernstein in building "The Sierra" F style mandolins. Dan is still in the area and could be a good resource in identifying the mandolins Cliff owned. Michael Lewis was also friend of Cliff's and might also have some knowledge of his instruments.

[Lawrence Smart]

Cliff stopped by my shop in McCall several years back while he was visiting family there. He Had a Loar in the trunk of his car which he brought in and showed to me along with another that he had made. The Loar did have a virzi in it, and somewhere I have copies of the aforementioned ctscans. He had great enthusiasm for mandolins and Loars in particular. I feel honored to have been able to meet him.

[f5loar]

A well known mandolin luthier dies owning 2 Loar mandolins (some say a '22, others a '24 with virzi which means he likely had 2) and the family doesn't know where they are at? Very interesting! It's like you won the lottery but lost the ticket stub.

[Rroyd]

Cafe member Zeke was talking about Cliff Sargent this last weekend at Wintergrass, and mentioned that he had 2 Loars, and that they had gone to family members after Mr. Sargent's passing. Perhaps this is one of them, but one would hope that a bit of information or history would have been passed on as well. Jump in here any time, Zeke, and fill us in with any details you might have.

[blindboy]

A well known mandolin luthier dies owning 2 Loar mandolins (some say a '22, others a '24 with virzi which means he likely had 2) and the family doesn't know where they are at? Very interesting! It's like you won the lottery but lost the ticket stub.

Whoa never thought my post would have caught such fire! In response to the quote above, never said we did not know where they were... my wife just questioned whether the one with the virzi was the real deal(which Cliff told me it was, and I think it is). I simply thought it would be fun to post to get some feedback from those that knew him to put the friendly disagreement between my wife and I to bed. For what it worth all his mandolins are well taken care of and are continually played which is the way Cliff would have wanted it.

[blindboy]

My 'Cliffy' special... number 26

[Dobe]

[QUOTE=blindboy;899396]
For what it worth all his mandolins are well taken care of and are continually played which is the way Cliff would have wanted it.


Amen !

[f5loar]

If you want to put to bed the disagreement between you and your wife and then all you need to do is post a few photos of the F5 in question and within a few hours you both can go to bed! We've not seen a photo of the one in question, only others that are not the real deal. But if you know where 2 of them are then it's more likely yours is not one of them.

[adizz]

I don't want to come off as being rude, but why won't you post a picture of the mandolin in question. It seems like you could get some quick answers. Either way you've got a great mandolin its ashame it came to you in such sad way.

[blindboy]

I don't want to come off as being rude, but why won't you post a picture of the mandolin in question. It seems like you could get some quick answers. Either way you've got a great mandolin its ashame it came to you in such sad way.

Our questions have all been answered. Thanks for the insight.

[f5loar]

Can anyone who knew Cliff (or a family member) tells us how many F5 Loar copies he made using the "The gibson" logo and labels?
And how many total mandolin production did he make? Did he make other instruments?

[Andrew B. Carlson]

Maybe Mr. Wolfe could add em all to the archive...?

[HoGo]

My 'Cliffy' special... number 26

This one looks much closer to real deal, correct f-hole shape, however the scroll ridge is done in the style of modern Gibsons going inside at its end not towards waist. The extension has good shape (mid '23-ish) though the small point on the f/b seems to be rounded. The neck should be moved a tiny bit closer to body scroll as well. The carving or the binding joint in the scroll looks a bit funny but that may be due to small size of the picture.
Please post pic of the real one. Is it in the archive? If not, many would love to see it.

[AlanN]

I briefly met Cliff at IBMA Louisville, maybe 1999, played one of his great mandolins. He came across as a gentle, quiet man.

[Tim W]

Judging by his last post, I think the original poster is done with this thread and has evidently chosen to keep pics of the mandolin private. Glad to hear they are being played regular.

[P.D. Kirby]

Judging by his last post, I think the original poster is done with this thread and has evidently chosen to keep pics of the mandolin private. Glad to hear they are being played regular.

+1 I for one completely understand his reluctance to post a picture of this treasure. If I had $225,000.00 laying around the house I don't think I would broadcast it to the world. I am satisfied that Cliff indeed had at least one if not two Loars and it has been fun reading about a great builder who I unfortunately never had a chance to meet.

All my best to the family and a big thanks for all that shared their stories of Cliff. His spirit will live on through his creations and a little mystery is always a good thing. My guess is one day we will see his Loar(s) pop up on one of the sites for sale and then we will know for sure. I am satisfied until that time.

[mandograss]

I don't think a picture would have done much anyway. With a short sound clip, Rick could compare it to his Red Diamond and tell us if it is the real deal or not.

[Scotti Adams]

I don't think a picture would have done much anyway. With a short sound clip, Rick could compare it to his Red Diamond and tell us if it is the real deal or not.

####..I just about #### all over myself on that one

[G. Fisher]

I don't think a picture would have done much anyway. With a short sound clip, Rick could compare it to his Red Diamond and tell us if it is the real deal or not.

[JonZ]

Forget about the pictures, post an mp3 file. There are plenty of people on this site who will be able to identify the "Ultimate Mandolin" when they hear it.