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Thread: Left hand position

  1. #1
    Registered User mandrian's Avatar
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    Default Left hand position

    Apologies if this has been discussed before but I could not find the specific issue I was trying to clarify.

    I'm clear how to position the left hand in terms of where the thumb goes, index finger goes, etc. but how straight is the back of your forearm and the back of your hand? Is it practically a straight line? For example if you placed a straight edge (ruler) under your watchstrap under the dial would the back of your left hand be pretty much flush the against the straight edge as you played.

    I don't grip the neck as I play and do leave some space between my palm and the neck, but wonder if the back of the hand should be angled slightly back or should be kept straight. Referred to the Mike Marshall DVD and a few other sources, but was not altogether clear.

    Thanks

  2. #2

    Default Re: Left hand position

    I think whether guitar, mandolin, whatever the thing that's easiest on our wrist and hand is to keep the back of the hand more toward a neutral position than bent one way or another. That said, there are certain things you play that need you to flex that left wrist a bit so you gotta do what you gotta do. But a lot of the time you can keep it pretty close to straight and that's a good thing.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Left hand position

    I agree with Brent. As someone who's spent way too much time with arching left wrist...lots of classical guitar, then bass...if you can do it with a straight wrist, go for it -- which should help minimize deleterious physiological conditions emanating from too much playing.

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    Registered User Tom Wright's Avatar
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    Default Re: Left hand position

    For sure you can't hold your wrist at right angles to the neck as in guitar, unless you intend to never stretch for violin fingering, i.e. one finger per 2 frets, (whole step).

    I think the best description is to rotate wrist so that the palm faces somewhat toward the bridge, or maybe towards the scroll on an F5. Instead of palm facing across the fingerboard it is looking along the neck. This allows less reach across the fingerboard (which you don't need0 and allows more stretch between fingers, like index curled to play first fret while pinky is extended to reach 7th or 8th fret.

    Also, you should hold the neck somewhat firmly between thumb and base of the index finger, to help stabilize the instrument. It lacks the stability of guitar, or the firm chinrest grip of violin.
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    Registered User mandrian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Left hand position

    Thanks for the replies so far. After struggling to really improve over recent years, I'm trying to make sure that my basic technique is as orthodox as possible. In this interest I moved to the Compton grip for holding the pick and after some hard work for a month or so, it is now second nature.

    I was watching one of Pete Martin's videos and he seems to suggest having the mandolin in a more parallel position than the slightly angled upwards position I use (Butch also did this in his), but also seemed to suggest a straight line between the forearm to the back of the hand where the fingers start.

    I think I'll keep my slightly angled mandolin position (as favoured by Mike Marshall in his DVD), but was wondering if I was being unorthodox is slightly bowing back my wrist so that that palm faces slightly upwards rather keeping it straight and having the palm face more to the bridge.

    Any further clarification much appreciated.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Left hand position

    i've been over-hauling my grip/wrist/arm posture as well. what i've decided so far is that the wrist and arm position may vary - they'll do whatever they're going to do - but what's essential for better tone, etc. is to use the "power" grip - recommended by mike compton - and keep it loose and secure - as opposed to jaw-clenching and tightly squeezed ... aka the "death" grip.

  7. #7
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Left hand position

    Quote Originally Posted by mandrian View Post
    I think I'll keep my slightly angled mandolin position (as favoured by Mike Marshall in his DVD), but was wondering if I was being unorthodox is slightly bowing back my wrist so that that palm faces slightly upwards rather keeping it straight and having the palm face more to the bridge.
    Only when doing that big G chop chord.

    I think flexibility and relaxed is the most important thing.

    I do not let my left hand support any of the weight of the instrument, so that I can be relaxed and move up and down the neck.
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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Left hand position

    Ultimately -it's whatever works for you.There are those who would say that there's a 'correct' way & an 'incorrect way'. I always thought that the 'better' players would adopt the 'correct way',which seems to be with the pad of the thumb resting on the side of the neck. But i watched Chris Thile playing a tune the other day,& sometimes it is,& sometimes he wraps his thumb completely around the neck,so that it rest in the crook of his first finger & thumb - that's what works for him,
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Left hand position

    Physiologically, you want your wrist at whatever angle gives you the most grip strength, which is also the angle your wrist prefers to be in while performing any gripping/pulling type motion with the fingers (typing, picking up a suitcase, etc.). This will allow you to fret notes with the least amount of effort, which in turn will help you stay relaxed while playing, which in turn will reduce fatigue and injury.

    This “optimum angle” may vary slightly from person to person but it’s pretty easy to figure out. Just hold your fretting hand up in front of you and make a fist, then squeeze as hard as you can. Your hand will naturally gravitate towards a certain angle, and that’s the angle you try to maintain while playing. Simple as that.

    Another good method is to lay your forearm on a table in front of you, palm down, while making a very relaxed fist. Your wrist should be more or less in a straight line, measured along the bottom of your forearm, across your palm and “door knocking” knuckles.

    What you will notice when you start playing, is that when you maintain this angle but raise or lower the neck of the mandolin, it will change your thumb position. The higher the neck, the lower on the neck your thumb will be. If you play with the mandolin slung low, or the neck parallel to the floor (as opposed to angled up towards the ceiling) your thumb will naturally ride higher. Most people mistakenly focus on thumb position instead of wrist angle, which can cause problems. As you move from the treble strings down to lower strings, you will notice your thumb changing position slightly due to the relationship of the neck to the palm of your hand.

    This also explains why classical guitarists play with the thumb way down on the back of the neck – when the neck is angled at 45 degrees towards the ceiling, the thumb will naturally fall almost in the middle of the neck (the elbow angle comes into play here as well). A flatpicker with the guitar horizontal and resting low on their thigh will naturally have the thumb a lot higher. The angle of the wrist, however, should be the same in both scenarios.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Left hand position

    For a great example, check out this video. Four world class players on four different instruments…and they all have their thumbs hanging over the top of the neck to some degree. Poor technique? Really? Look at their wrists…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtfvqLZOCHo

    Here’s another video of a guy with his thumb way down the back of the neck…but his wrist angle is virtually the same...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vN_DanfGso

    Despite the apparent differences, these guys are all using sound technique. It's all in the wrist!

  11. #11
    Registered User wildpikr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Left hand position

    Try this link and listen to Mike Marshall...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmagoBQunZI
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Left hand position

    Quote Originally Posted by wildpikr View Post
    Try this link and listen to Mike Marshall...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmagoBQunZI
    I’ve seen that before. Mike Marshall is a million times the player I’ll ever be and he’s probably forgotten more about technique than I’ll ever know. That said, I have to question how much he’s really thought some of this stuff through. First, look at his wrist angle, it’s pretty much perfect. But he never mentions it, focusing on the thumb and the palm instead. BOTH CONTROLLED BY THE WRIST ANGLE. And his impression of a classical guitarist is wrong. Good classical guitarists don’t bend their wrist that way, and they don’t fret with their fingers parallel to the fingerboard. They use their fingertips (unless barreing of course). As an accomplished guitarist, Mike would know this if he stopped to think about it. I understand the point he was trying to make, don’t play with your thumb behind the neck, but again, the thumb location is controlled by the wrist angle and will vary depending on how you angle the neck of the mandolin.

    I guess the lesson is pay more attention to what people do and less to what they say.

  13. #13
    Horton River NWT Rob Gerety's Avatar
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    Default Re: Left hand position

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Kelsall View Post
    Ultimately -it's whatever works for you./I], Ivan
    All due respect, but personally I think this is good advice for an advanced player but not so good for the beginner. I think a beginner or new player should strive to develop well accepted techniques. Otherwise you can develop techniques that get in your way later on down the road and you find your self relearning things and that can be hard. I know from my own personal experience.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Left hand position

    further to this topic, i've just been playing for a few months now, and was unwittingly letting the neck rest on my palm a LOT of the time. a few weeks ago, my left index finger started aching...i decided not to play for a bit and let it heal (and in the meantime figure out what i was doing wrong). i didn't play for two weeks, but am still experiencing the soreness. i started playing again a few days ago, my teacher suggested taking off the 2nd strings so it didn't stress my finger too much. the soreness is still there at about the same level, i guess i'll see in the next few days if it worsens with resuming practice.

    knowing that nobody can really give me any actual medical diagnosis...does anyone have any advice? is there a certain amount of time i shouldn't play to let it heal? do i need to go to a physical therapist to see what they say? since i use that finger all day, every day for all kinds of things, it seems like it'll take forever to actually heal all the way...and i can't stand not playing for that long.

  15. #15
    Registered User Tom Wright's Avatar
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    Default Re: Left hand position

    Over-use injury happens to professionals as well as amateurs. I fight the tendency to squeeze instead of being accurate, but fingers, and other joints can get inflamed. Tendonitis or similar can be treated by anti-inflammatory drugs, Aleve being most-recommended these days. A steady diet of that coupled with low-effort practice or a total vacation for a few weeks should fix it. It is important to keep any inflammation suppressed so as to avoid actual damage to cartilage, tendons, etc.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Left hand position

    that sounds like a nice compromise.

    thanks for the info, tom!

  17. #17

    Default Re: Left hand position

    Agreed; a straight wrist will minimize developing carpal tunnel or other injuries. My first mandolin teacher, a real master player, said that bad left hand technique permanently damaged his wrist. The injury is so bad he can only play on a specially made electric mandolin. Mike Marshall's advice re: holding it like a violin is a great description for good left hand technique.

    When I watch folks play the mandolin with their thumbs sticking up like a fencepost; no space between the neck and thumb/pointer cradle, I wonder how long they'll be able to play without pain or injury.

    The other thing is that the fiddle holding technique sets up your fingers to be in the proper position to fret away.

    Off Topic: Another point Mike Marshall made is that when it comes to making chords; just do whatever works. This is both helpful and annoying. He's right, but my fiddle technique goes out the door and I just grab and squeeze in any position that gets the sound to come out clean.

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    I agree with Brent. As someone who's spent way too much time with arching left wrist...lots of classical guitar, then bass...if you can do it with a straight wrist, go for it -- which should help minimize deleterious physiological conditions emanating from too much playing.
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