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Thread: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

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    Default bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    which mandolin did bill monroe play prior to finding his loar? any mention of what he thought about it?

    just curious

  2. #2
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    Prior to buying his Gibson F-5 he played a Gibson F-7. There are older pictures of Bill and Charlie where he is playing some sort of A style mandolin. I seem to recall some quotes being here about his F-7, either in a video or in print but I can't find them right now. I'm sure some of the Bill Monroe scholars and friends might be able to shed more light on where that information might be if indeed it is here.

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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    Interesting,at least that BM thought that the Loar was 'better' for him than the F-7, How are the F-7 models viewed,as good / bad / indifferent ??. It seems to be a model not widely mentioned, even on here. It makes me wonder if it was the price that attracted BM to look at the Loar,or he realised that the F-7 wasn't so good & just needed a 'better' Mandolin anyway,
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    Default Re: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    here's some photos of the F7 from the mandolinarchive.com - short production period (1934-40)

    http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?3348

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    mandolinist, Mixt Company D C Blood's Avatar
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    Default Re: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    F-7s have the "short" (F-4) type necks, and generally have a nice tone, but not the volume that an F-5 has. If I remember properly, the A-model WSM had was an Epiphone. No one seems to know what happened to the F-7...
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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    I believe Monroe had the Epiphone after he got he F5. If I recall he played and was photographed with it during one of his arguments with Gibson.

    Here is one of a few threads on Monroe's Epiphone. It looks like he had his picture taken with it in the 50's.

    And here's one with pictures.

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    Two of Bill pre Loar.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    Here is another picture of it.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    There is a picture of Bill Monroe as a teenager with his brother Charlie. They are standing outside and Bill is playing an A model with a round or oval hole. For the life of me I can't find it. If anyone else can please post it. I believe that is the earliest picture of Bill playing a mandolin. It's the earliest I recall seeing.

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    Registered User f5loar's Avatar
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    Default Re: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    Comparing an F7 to a Loar F5 would be like comparing a Volkswagon Beetle to a Rolls Royce Silver Cloud. Big, big difference.
    I bet it only took one B chop to hand over the barber that hard earned $150. Bill got the F7 new in 1934 and kept playing it until early 1945 when he got the Loar. That's a pretty long stretch for one mandolin. I guess Big Mon never got the MAS. He was too busy inventing a new sound of American music to be bothered with MAS. However it was in the mid 50's that many other new mandolin pickers caught the "Monroe Fever" which would lead to full blown MAS in trying to find a mandolin that would sound "just like Bills".

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    Default Re: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    ... For the life of me I can't find it ...
    have you checked your wallet?

    i'm sure there was a "eureka" moment for bill monroe, after stepping into that barbershop - and yes, he might be the father of MAS as well - everyone searching for that tone

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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    Thanks for the info.re.the F-7 's. Would the longer scale length of the F-5 be the main feature affecting the tone & volume of that style of instrument,or were the Mandolin bodies much different as well ?.
    If there was as much a difference as f5loar suggests,i bet BM thought he'd died & gone to Mandolin heaven when he played the Loar for the first time - i wish i could have been there to hear what he said,probably not much, knowing of his reticence,but i bet he was more than a tad excited by his purchase,
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    Default Re: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    I`ve played two F-7`s that had a long neck put on them and they sounded great...The longer neck allowed the bridge to be moved to the "sweet spot" on the top of the mandolin, on the F-7`s the bridge was back closer to the tail piece and didn`t allow the top to vibrate as much as with the long necks....I wonder if the tops of the `34 F-7`s were carved like the `34 Ferns? I guess no way to tell without tearing them apart....There was also some F-12`s made with the short neck, Duffey`s was originally.....

    Willie

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    Default Re: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Kelsall View Post
    Thanks for the info.re.the F-7 's. Would the longer scale length of the F-5 be the main feature affecting the tone & volume of that style of instrument,or were the Mandolin bodies much different as well ?.
    If there was as much a difference as f5loar suggests,i bet BM thought he'd died & gone to Mandolin heaven when he played the Loar for the first time - i wish i could have been there to hear what he said,probably not much, knowing of his reticence,but i bet he was more than a tad excited by his purchase,
    Ivan
    Scale length is the same, as with the Gibson A's, F2 & 4's. The bridge is further back toward the tailpiece, with the shorter neck; no decrease in scale.
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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    Thank you MS - i am now less ignorant than i was,
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    Default Re: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    You're welcome. The change in bridge position & longer neck does significantly increase the tension & usually the volume & "punch".
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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    MS - I think that you've explained something re.this thread in the ''builder's'' section :-
    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ouder-mandolin .The increase in tension producing more volume & punch. In the case of myself & NickT.,even a small change produced a BIG difference. I can see why that would make the Loar a louder,punchier instrument. No wonder Mr Monroe went for it,
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    Default Re: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    I was at the Grand Ol Opry this weekend (watching my brother's band, Edens Edge, play there for the first time!!!!!), and in one of the mens rooms on the balcony level, there is a picture of Bill from what looks like the 50's, where he is playing an A-style Gibson with f-holes and a broad headstock (like the teens A's, not the snakeheads). It looks like they were really playing, not just posing for a pic.

    I kinda wish I had taken a picture of it, but you gotta admit, it's awkward to take a camera into there. Anybody know about if he played on a A-style Gibby later on? I claim no dating expertise, so it may be earlier than the 50's, but I don't think it was later. I didn't recognize any of the Boys, but that doesn't mean much.

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    Default Re: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    There is a picture of Bill Monroe as a teenager with his brother Charlie. They are standing outside and Bill is playing an A model with a round or oval hole. For the life of me I can't find it. If anyone else can please post it. I believe that is the earliest picture of Bill playing a mandolin. It's the earliest I recall seeing.
    Here it is, found in this thread.

    Patrick
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    Registered User DrEugeneStrickland's Avatar
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    Default Re: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    Has anyone really listened to The Monroe Brothers?
    I can't for the life of me find anything deficient in Mr. Monroe's tone or volume?....
    In fact his playing on these sessions is what I would consider the "Big Bang' of modern mandolin playing period!
    No, Bill didn't have to chop his F7 since he had Charlie playing with the best timing of any country guitar player up until that time!!... so what do we hear then?
    incredible fast and articulate fills all played at lightening speed while the brothers sang complex harmonies at times switching parts... Myths die hard!

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    Registered User f5loar's Avatar
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    Default Re: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    Sounds like the photo taken when Big Mon borrowed Lonzo's old 50's Gibson A50 while the Loar was out for repairs. Lonzo Sullivan of Lonzo & Oscar Opry comedy team fame were good friends of Monroe. There was also some photos of when he borrowed Connie Gately's old A50 too. Connie was a Bluegrass Boy that played guitar with Monroe in the mid 50's.

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    Registered User swampstomper's Avatar
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    Default Re: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    +1
    I have really listened and been struck dumb (as were the audiences in the 1930's) by the virtuousity, harmonies, and yes, Charlie's great rhythm. You will notice Bill seems to chop harder when he needs to keep a band in time. Nothing against Pete Rowans but the chop is really prominant in the fiddle tunes with Richard Greene like Grey Eagle.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrEugeneStrickland View Post
    Has anyone really listened to The Monroe Brothers?
    I can't for the life of me find anything deficient in Mr. Monroe's tone or volume?....
    In fact his playing on these sessions is what I would consider the "Big Bang' of modern mandolin playing period!
    No, Bill didn't have to chop his F7 since he had Charlie playing with the best timing of any country guitar player up until that time!!... so what do we hear then?
    incredible fast and articulate fills all played at lightening speed while the brothers sang complex harmonies at times switching parts... Myths die hard!

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoCelt View Post
    Here it is, found in this thread.
    That's the one I was looking for, thanks.

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    Default Re: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    Agree on the Monroe Brothers. So much is attributed to the Loar, but Bill's playing with Charlie was technically so phenomenally advanced that it transcended the instrument. The need for more volume that the F-5 gave him undoubtedly became more of a consideration playing with the louder lead instruments that came along with the larger groups and with which he did not have to contend with in the duo, but the tone of his F-7 was always as smooth as silk.
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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: bill monroe's pre-loar mandolin

    Not to hijack, but to sort of start a meta-discussion: is there any other instrument, about which the history and preferences of a single player have been so influential, as the mandolin and Bill Monroe? Seems that the entire history and development of mandolins, at least in the US, have hinged around the choices Monroe made as to what instrument to perform and record with. Why are factories in Asia churning out thousands of copies of the Gibson F-5, if not for the fact that Monroe played one? There was a thread a while ago, speculating on what the "mandolin universe" would look like today, if Monroe had featured that Epiphone Strand he apparently played at times in the early 1950's.

    Earl Scruggs's Gibson Granada Mastertone banjo also exercised a lot of influence on subsequent pickers, and it's true that the Gibson flat-head Mastertone banjo has also become the "gold standard," at least for bluegrass. Perhaps it's a bit harder to discern, since banjos all have the same approximate silhouette, with only inlays, headstock profile, resonator flanges etc. to differentiate them. The distinctive shape of the Gibson F-model -- which, we pretty much agree, has few acoustic advantages over A-models, two-points, and other body designs -- has become largely synonymous with "first-rate mandolin," for better or worth. Note: I'm not trying to say that F-models are in any way "better" acoustically than A-models -- they're not, as far as I can tell -- but just that F-models have become the accepted standard for high-end mandolins, as shown by the number being made.

    But how much of that is due to the extremely high quality of Lloyd Loar F-5's from the early 1920's, and the other Gibson F-models, and how much due to the iconic image of Bill Monroe playing his Loar F-5? If he had played something else, would we still be venerating the Loar's as much, and would mandolin builders be making such a high percentage of F-models? What if the most common sight at a bluegrass jam, was someone playing an mandolin that looked like an Epiphone Strand or a Vega cylinder-back, or a Martin "2" model?

    The continuing interest in what mandolin Monroe may have played at what point in his career, points to a very unusual identification of a whole genre of instruments, with a single performer. There are all kinds of guitars, played by all kinds of famous guitarists; I don't hear trumpeters saying they have to buy a Selmer (or whatever), because that's what Louis Armstrong may have played. But Monroe and his mandolins still have a strong grip on our imaginations and preferences. "Fascinating," as Mr. Spock would say.
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