Best solution for adding an acoustic pickup?

[digitalshrub]

Hey all.

I just acquired a beautiful 2002 Gibson F9 that I'm nuts about. For the past two years I've been gigging with my first mandolin, a Kentucky, which I've loved but outgrown.

I had the Kentucky outfitted with an external pickup system from K&K, installed by the good folks at Mandolin Brothers. While the pickup has sounded reasonably good to me, the appearance of it splayed across the body of the mando isn't my favorite image. I know that's not what's important, but hey, I just got a really nice mandolin. If there's a way to show if off and not sacrifice tone quality, I want to!

The repair guy at Mandolin Bros informed me that putting an internal pickup in a mandolin is not easy or optimal, as the bracing seriously limits where you can place it, which means potentially sacrificing the natural sound of the mando when it's run thru a PA. I love the tone of my F9 and I don't want to lose it, but I'd also love to avoid the eyesore of an external.

Does anyone have thoughts about internal vs external acoustic pickups?

P.S. -- playing into a mic isn't an option...my band, being rock/rockabilly/roots oriented, makes too much volume for that, and we take up enough mics as it is with 4 vocalists!

[Paul Busman]

K&K makes an internal pickup with two piezos that people here love. I bought a much cheaper one (forget the name right now) which I installed myself. Note that this entailed drilling through the side of the mandolin. The K&K is an end button installation-- on a good Gibson, you'll probably want to have that professionally done.
Mine has two similar piezo pickups, and I had no trouble finding a place to cement them. I put them just lateral to the F-holes.

[Andy Miller]

K&K Mandolin Twin Internals, or McIntyre Feather internals, or other such pickups that stick to the inside of the mandolin and are wired to an endpin jack, are not the easiest things to install, but a luthier ought to be able to do it for you. The tone bars can get in the way of the transducer locations K&K suggests, for example. But at least with an internally-mounted system, everything still looks nice and tidy, and you don't have to worry about damaging wires, knocking a carpenter jack off, or that kind of thing.


In my opinion, sacrificing the natural sound of the mandolin when using any pickup through a PA is a given, not just a potential hazard. It's just a matter of in what ways and how much it sounds different. If you're going to plug in, you should probably accept the fact that it's going to sound different and figure out how to get a plugged-in sound that will work for your situation. A good preamp can help you to improve the sound, if you know what to do with it.

[David Miller]

I have had really good luck with my Schertler. I had an external for several years, and just got tired of taking the pickup on and off all the time, so I had the internal version installed. It uses the end pin jack, and the luthier that installed it said it was the best sounding pickup he had heard on a mando. He had no problems getting the pickup in the sweet spot, even with the internal bracing on the Collings. I have just a little mid EQ rolloff, but other than that I get great sound, don't have feedback issues, and can really crank it when I need too.

[Tim2723]

Although seldom mentioned (and perhaps for good reasons I don't understand), there are small microphones that mount internally. I've heard very good results with those, but they are a different technology with different challenges. Maybe something to look into though.

Personally, I side with Andy's comment about the tone changing. It's a given. No matter what you use, you're always talking about a reproduction of the original sound. How faithful that reproduction ends up is another matter, but with work you can get a very pleasing result.

[Mandobart]

Hey all.

I had the Kentucky outfitted with an external pickup system from K&K, installed by the good folks at Mandolin Brothers...The repair guy at Mandolin Bros informed me that putting an internal pickup in a mandolin is not easy or optimal, as the bracing seriously limits where you can place it, which means potentially sacrificing the natural sound of the mando when it's run thru a PA...Does anyone have thoughts about internal vs external acoustic pickups?

I'm not a professional luthier, have no formal training in it. However, I've installed internal p/u's in many instruments, including F and oval hole mandos. Never been to Mandolin Bro's, but they have earned a great reputation on this board. Seems very unusual that they would resist/discourage doing this work. Of course there is no perfect reproduction or reinforcement of acoustic sound, but I think, based on my experience, you'll love playing an electrified Gibson in your band! You may need to find someone else to do the work. Congrats on the new mando!

[Mandobart]

Does anyone have thoughts about internal vs external acoustic pickups?

I forgot to address this last question. I've tried both external and internal, and much prefer internal. I found I would accidentally brush the carpernter jack or wiring from the p/u with my arm or sleeve, and the sound would get passed through the amp/PA. Didn't like that. Also hated the look of the carpenter jack on the outside. Internal mount with a standard jack output at the tailpin (or on lower bout, if you have sufficient re-inforcement of the side) looks and sounds better, to me.

[Tim2723]

That's a good observation. A lot of folks like the external mount because it doesn't modify the instrument, but it can be sort of...well, clumsy.

[mandroid]

I have the external mount niche filled by Schertler's Dyn M. it goes on or stows away as needed.

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

I got a Baggs Radius partly because I didn't like having a pickup installed permanently, and wanted something I can put on and take off easily. But I found that no matter how careful I handled the pickup, I ended up putting little dings here and there from putting it on. In the end I somewhat wished I had gone the internal route. It would have given the mandolin a much cleaner look, and kept it from being dinged up.

[mandroid]

See 'Best' gets you Opinions , so here really is no 'best' . like the winner of the finals.

[Tbone]

I have had really good luck with my Schertler. I had an external for several years, and just got tired of taking the pickup on and off all the time, so I had the internal version installed. It uses the end pin jack, and the luthier that installed it said it was the best sounding pickup he had heard on a mando. He had no problems getting the pickup in the sweet spot, even with the internal bracing on the Collings. I have just a little mid EQ rolloff, but other than that I get great sound, don't have feedback issues, and can really crank it when I need too.

How does the sound of the internal pickup compare to the stick-on? It looks like the internal has a 1/4" output, which is the biggest problem I have with my stick-on. Do you use any pedals, or just a DI?

Are these still available? I'm not seeing them on the schertler site.

[David Miller]

How does the sound of the internal pickup compare to the stick-on? It looks like the internal has a 1/4" output, which is the biggest problem I have with my stick-on. Do you use any pedals, or just a DI?

Are these still available? I'm not seeing them on the schertler site.

The external and internal versions of the pickup are identical as far as the workings. I have not really noticed any tonal differences between the two. The only difference is that the external pickup has a case built around it to protect it. The internal does come with a 1/4" end pin jack, which my luthier had to do a little reaming for, but the end result is not even noticeable as far as looks, and I use a right angle jack on my cable so that the cable doesn't stick straight out the end. I don't currently use any pedals, but I have started using the Line 6 digital wireless setup. I can attach the transmitter pack to the tone Gard on the back of the instrument, and you can't see anything from the front. The receiver then goes directly into my Bose Tone Engine for EQ and effects. I just had this work done about 3 months ago, so I assume the pickup is still available. My luthier took care of ordering it, so I don't know the details.

Hope this answered you questions.

[rfd]

since all acoustic instruments are unique to varying degrees, there will be varying degrees of sound reproduction via any transducer or mic and lots will depend on experimenting with pickup location(s) if possible. 'f' hole instruments such as archtops and mandos require more thought and trialing (perhaps) to find the sweet spot(s), whereas flattops with fixed bridges and saddles are a piece of cake. in all cases i prefer soundboard transducers and not those quacky under saddle piezos. i have a bryan england mando coming and will fit out with kk 'f' hole transducers. ymmv.

[digitalshrub]

Thanks for all these responses! Could anyone explain what the discernible differences between an internal pickup and internal microphone would be?

While I adore the tone of my F9, I understand that any sort of amplification technology will result in a loss of some of this tone native to the instrument. It may be worth noting that my band's music (and my own taste), while incorporating a lot of traditional elements, is not straight up bluegrass, and some of the purism of bluegrass insofar as preservation of traditional instrumental sounds is not crucial to me. That said, I'm not the type (thank goodness) to run a mandolin through a guitar amp. I definitely want to keep things sounding warm and woodsy.

I've never used a preamp in a live setting before...would anyone mind explaining the advantages of this for a mandolin? Sorry for my laymanism. (My technical knowledge has so far been better developed in the realm of my other instrument, electric guitar.)

[Lil Chubs]

I have had great results with my K and K Mandolin Twin Spot internal pickup. I play a Collings MF that I am crazy over, and I certainly didn't want to drill the endpin out to mount a 1/4 inch jack. I bought the K and K pickup, a Tapastring Vintage Jack, and a 1/4 chord and took it to my local luthier shop. They had me hooked up in only a few days with my pickup and vintage jack installed, and with an 1/8 inch adapter placed on one end of a 1/4 instrument cable to fit the Tapastring. Good to go, and you never even know the pickup is there b/c it's internal and you never see it. Good way to get the internal pickup sound without having a clumsy clamp on pickup stuck to the outside of your instrument. I've been there and done that, and it's for the birds.

I just bought a Roland AC60 acoustic amp for a personal stage monitor, as well as a Audio Technica ATM350 clamp on instrument cardioid condensor mic to blend with my pickup for a more natural sound. Tried it out last night at a noisy bar, and had to ditch the mic and use just the pickup until I can get some feedback dialed out at next rehearsal. Try it out!

[mandroid]

Digishrub,
the microphone mounts are typically , from what many here have shown,
just a really close external mount, like right over the F hole .
attached to the mandolin so the player is free to move.

soundboard pickups hear what they are attached to.

Are these still available? I'm not seeing them on the schertler site.

Schertler graphics prefers drawings to photographs , mostly.

the C dyn S is their installed model, the Dyn M is their external.
Dyn A is their newer version miniaturized a bit more. (+ $)
both use a TRS 3 conductor jack , the external one uses an XLR 3 conductor plug, same thing .
ground is to the shield, twisted pair is the hot and cold for the signal.

[rfd]

after installing at least a few hundred under bridge plate transducers for flatop guitars, i really like their sound/tone over any under saddle piezos (quacky beasties). my choice is definitely the kk mini - before that, i preferred the baggs i-beam (but it must be the active version!). with 'f' hole instruments, i think the the kk transducer is tough to beat, but the twin element locations can, and usually are, more challenging than a trio stuck to a guitar's bridge plate. imho, the smaller the box, the more difficult to find the sweet spot(s). overall, i don't like sticking anything to any quality acoustic - but that's typically not being realistic when it comes to stage and studio.

[EdSherry]

"Internal microphones" can suffer from the problem that the sound inside the instrument can bear very little resemblance to what the instrument sounds outside / to the audience, when you can count on some distance between the instrument and the mike. While there are some decent "internal mikes," I've never been a particular fan of them as the sole sound source; IMHO, they seem to work best in conjunction with a multi-transducer setup [e.g., the old Baggs "Dual Source" system for guitar].

The Schertler "microphone" pickups are a whole 'nother beast. I like them a lot for mandolin, but they're pricey!

As others have indicated, there are a number of different "internal pickup" approaches, and they can sound significantly different from one another. Soundboard transducers (like the K&K) tend to sound different from bridge-mounted transducers (like the Fishman M-100 and M-200).

[swankerme]

Good thread. I am also interested in finding a pickup so I can start playing on stage. I plan on having three acoustics (mandolin, octave, mandocello) that I would want to be able to swap an external pickup between. Ideally I would like one external pickup that I could easily swap between the three, would the external mandolin pickups (K&K, Baggs, etc) work well for this scenario?

[Perry]

Good thread. I am also interested in finding a pickup so I can start playing on stage. I plan on having three acoustics (mandolin, octave, mandocello) that I would want to be able to swap an external pickup between. Ideally I would like one external pickup that I could easily swap between the three, would the external mandolin pickups (K&K, Baggs, etc) work well for this scenario?

The Schertler would be easiest to to transfer among instruments yet still problematic mid-set.

I thought the OP was questioning if a mounted pick-up would change the acoustic unplugged sound of the instrument. i.e. change the top's vibration? Anybody have any thoughts on this?

I've had great luck with the Schertler; I may stick with it over the K&K over any future installs. I am happy with it; why mess around?

Having done many gigs with both the externally mounted Schertler and now an internal mounted one I much prefer the ease and "look" of internal install.

[rfd]

imho, messing around with transducers of any flavor, and acoustic instruments of most any type, is a crap shoot of sorts. like magnetic guitar/bass pickups, there are so many choices and each acoustic instrument can be so different in terms of just about everything. unlike mag pups, transducers can have so many varied locations to test out, too. not an easy row to hoe, so most folks just guess and hope for a decent sound. ymmv.

[Tim2723]

I thought the OP was questioning if a mounted pick-up would change the acoustic unplugged sound of the instrument. i.e. change the top's vibration? Anybody have any thoughts on this?

I've never noticed any change. Pickups are generally so small and light that just holding the instrument probably has more affect.

I agree with all who've said that any pickup will color the sound to some extent. I think that's just how it goes. If you're in a really loud band like the OP, sometimes that tiny sacrifice is worth it. You want perfect tone, head for the studio. You want to survive the live stage, get a pickup.

[ronwalker49]

Does anyone have a source for the "mini" piezo pickups in bulk?

[Jim]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121253903974...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I've put these in several instruments, guitars and mandolins, with good results.