Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 168

Thread: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

  1. #26
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    13,103

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle3585 View Post
    Well, seeing how Bobby's mandolin went from a '25 to a '29 then I wonder if mine will jump in to the Loar era.
    I don't think so, but I might be wrong. In terms of serial numbers, we can define "Loar era" as any serial number that falls between the earliest and latest signed Loar instruments. IIRC, yours is well before the Loar era by that measure. Joe can tell us whether his book contains information that compels us to redefine the Loar era, but it would have to be a different kind of information than the revelation about Osborne's Fern.
    Emando.com: More than you wanted to know about electric mandolins.

    Notorious: My Celtic CD--listen & buy!

    Lyon & Healy • Wood • Thormahlen • Andersen • Bacorn • Yanuziello • Fender • National • Gibson • Franke • Fuchs • Aceto • Three Hungry Pit Bulls

  2. #27

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    Well, it was wishful thinking. Although when I did a search on my FON, I found another mandolin listed at Elderly that shared my FON but was from the late twenties or early thirties. I'll need to go back and check. I assumed they reused them like serial numbers?

  3. #28
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    13,103

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    Now that's interesting. I don't know the answer to that. Yours is a Cremona brown "reissue A2," 1919ish, right? I do not think FONs were reused, but I guess we'll have to read Joe's book for the definitive answer.
    Emando.com: More than you wanted to know about electric mandolins.

    Notorious: My Celtic CD--listen & buy!

    Lyon & Healy • Wood • Thormahlen • Andersen • Bacorn • Yanuziello • Fender • National • Gibson • Franke • Fuchs • Aceto • Three Hungry Pit Bulls

  4. #29

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    I don't know what the "re-issue" means but yes it is a 1919 A2 with a FON of 11149. There is a 1924 Mandola in the Archives, 78263, which shares the same FON. Sorry, I don't want to hijack the thread. I look forward to the publication of the book and the discussion to follow.

  5. #30

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    Just in from work, and Tom, I find that quite interesting. I have to get a hold of this book, and learn more.
    I am puzzled though. I do not doubt the validity of this research, I just wonder... are there any 1925's then?
    I mean, there are definately 1924 F5's, you only have to look at the label. When are the next ones made? I have had two or three 1927 Ferns, but, now they are 1929's? I can handle that, but, which ones are post Loar? I mean the very next ones? Only the unsigned Loars??
    Joe, if you are out there, I have to have this book.
    Ken

  6. #31
    Registered User Joe Spann's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Nashville. TN
    Posts
    149

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    Hello Ken,

    I'd be happy to sell you a copy of the book!

    To answer one question, Gibson used the factory order numbers (FON's) over and over and over and over again. After a specific batch of instruments was produced and shipped there was no reason not to use that same number again. At Gibson the factory order numbers were used to track the amount of raw materials, sub-assemblies, and labor which were used during the production of any particular batch. This allowed the accounting department to accurately calculate costs, management to assign wholesale and retail prices, and the procurement department to re-order everything needed to build the next batch.

    Joe

  7. #32
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Howell, NJ
    Posts
    26,875

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    So the process of dating an instrument by FON can't be considered accurate? Were there unique FON's?

  8. #33
    Registered User f5loar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Salisbury,NC
    Posts
    6,468

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    Dan, don't forget Darryl is still about 300 photos behind of just the '22 through '42 era F5s.

  9. #34
    Registered User Joe Spann's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Nashville. TN
    Posts
    149

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    Hello Mike,

    A Gibson FON is still the most accurate method of determining a production date. However, because Gibson used the same numbers over and over again, you will need the charts in my book to determine the production year. It isn't a straight-forward process and before I created the FON charts it was nearly impossible.

    A Gibson serial number is the most accurate way of determining a shipping date. This is because serial numbers were applied at the time of final inspection, just prior to shipping.

    Joe

  10. #35
    Registered User f5loar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Salisbury,NC
    Posts
    6,468

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    And the problem with that is many prewar banjos only had FON and no serial nos. and the same for many low end mandolins and guitars. The F5,F4,F7,F10,F12 and some A model mandolins did have serial nos.
    Even with repeat FON you still need to know some knowledge about model changes and parts and when that came into being.

  11. #36
    Registered User Joe Spann's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Nashville. TN
    Posts
    149

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    The situation is further complicated by evidence that some instruments like the Loar F-5's and the earliest Nick Lucas Special guitars may have had numerical serial numbers reserved in advance of production.

    All pre-war Gibson instruments were produced under a factory order number, but only some of them also received a serial number. The FON may or may not appear on the instrument. If no FON appears, then as Tom says, the best method of determining a production date is by examination of constructional features. Determining a shipping date for an instrument built prior to March 1935 (when the shipping ledgers begin) is impossible if the instrument has no serial number.

    It is important to make a clear distinction between the production date and the shipping date. Some instruments were built and shipped immediately, showing a FON and a serial number in close chronological agreement. Other instruments were produced and hung around the factory for years. These instruments reveal early FON's and later serial numbers.

    Joe

  12. #37
    Cafe Linux Mommy danb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 1996
    Location
    Norfolk, England
    Posts
    5,813

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    Quote Originally Posted by f5loar View Post
    Dan, don't forget Darryl is still about 300 photos behind of just the '22 through '42 era F5s.
    Yes Sir, I am ready and willing to get them in. It takes a lot of time to collate them all- one of these days I will need to get over for a visit so we can all have an information snyc-up!
    The Mandolin Archive
    my CDs
    "The wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead"

  13. #38
    Americanadian Andrew B. Carlson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Sherwood Park, AB
    Posts
    828

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    I don't know why we're celebrating the arrival of this book. It could mean the end of half the discussion in this forum. We'll have too many answers! Ignorance and speculation is bliss people!
    Mandolin, Guitar, & Bass for Doug Rawling & The Caraganas
    www.dougrawling.com
    2008 Kentucky KM-1000
    2014 Martin D-28 Authentic 1937
    1964 Gibson LG-0
    2022 Sigma SDR-45VS

  14. #39
    Formerly F5JOURNL Darryl Wolfe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    aiken, sc
    Posts
    6,005

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew B. Carlson View Post
    I don't know why we're celebrating the arrival of this book. It could mean the end of half the discussion in this forum. We'll have too many answers! Ignorance and speculation is bliss people!

    Come on Andrew....there will always be something to argue about
    Darryl G. Wolfe, The F5 Journal
    www.f5journal.com

  15. #40

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew B. Carlson View Post
    I don't know why we're celebrating the arrival of this book. It could mean the end of half the discussion in this forum. We'll have too many answers! Ignorance and speculation is bliss people!
    The Bobby Osborne issue aside, I feel sorry for Joe because you know that he's going to get challenged on something that someone isn't going to want to hear about their mandolin.

  16. #41
    Formerly F5JOURNL Darryl Wolfe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    aiken, sc
    Posts
    6,005

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    I take no credit for any of this, but the issue has been festering for several years now. This is the answer to all the "sent back to the factory" crap that I have been challenging for a while now. When we see the data, It should all become clear. We have focused on mandolins, but Joe's research includes all things Gibson and that is the trump card in the deck
    Darryl G. Wolfe, The F5 Journal
    www.f5journal.com

  17. #42
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Howell, NJ
    Posts
    26,875

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    Quote Originally Posted by f5loar View Post
    And the problem with that is many prewar banjos only had FON and no serial nos. and the same for many low end mandolins and guitars. The F5,F4,F7,F10,F12 and some A model mandolins did have serial nos.
    Even with repeat FON you still need to know some knowledge about model changes and parts and when that came into being.
    The no serial number thing was what concerns me, we get messages posted frequently about instruments with no serial numbers. The production specs are always helpful but numbers always seem to point you in the right direction. I can't wait to see the book.

  18. #43
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    24,807
    Blog Entries
    56

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    The way this is going, someday we will be able to look at those old mandolin orchestra pictures and string band pictures and know where those instruments are today. Its kind of oookie to think about it, but every single one you see, if it hasn't been destroyed, is out there somewhere. I would love (LOVE) to get a picture of a band or orchestra from the late 20s, and know that in my hands is the second row third mandolin from the left.

    OK, one can dream, can't he?
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  19. #44
    Registered User Glassweb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Bellingham, WA
    Posts
    3,110

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    Quote Originally Posted by Darryl Wolfe View Post
    Come on Andrew....there will always be something to argue about
    Amen to that Darryl!

  20. #45
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Ann Arbor/Austin
    Posts
    6,281

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    Jeff, I like where your post is heading. I think Jim Garber was able to track the production of his Embergher to the actual workbench of the guy who was sitting next to Luigi himself. This obviously led to discussion as to whether the maestro got his hands on this mandolin as well. As you say it is amazing to start linking up these databases between the factory, the historical image and the (still with us) mandolin itself. I've got a 1916A and you bet I'll be getting a copy of Joe's book with your very question in mind.

    Mick
    Ever tried, ever failed? No matter. Try again, fail again. Fail better.--Samuel Beckett
    ______________________

    '05 Cuisinart Toaster
    '93 Chuck Taylor lowtops
    '12 Stetson Open Road
    '06 Bialetti expresso maker
    '14 Irish Linen Ramon Puig

  21. #46

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    I know that tradesmen from that era in other fields would often discreetly put their initials or a "mark" to show that they did work on a project. Has anyone ever seen that in an instrument? Also, does anyone know if an employee worked and instrument all the way through the building process or was it more like a production line where a worker was responsible for completing a couple tasks?

  22. #47
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Howell, NJ
    Posts
    26,875

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle3585 View Post
    I know that tradesmen from that era in other fields would often discreetly put their initials or a "mark" to show that they did work on a project. Has anyone ever seen that in an instrument?
    Sim Daley when he was at Gibson come to mind.

  23. #48
    Site founder Scott Tichenor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Lawrence, KS
    Posts
    5,220
    Blog Entries
    103

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    Fretboard Journal is reporting on their Twitter feed that they've done an audio interview with Joe and will be publishing it today but didn't say when. I don't have a link to that at the moment but will try to add it at some point.

  24. #49
    Registered User Joe Spann's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Nashville. TN
    Posts
    149

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Tichenor View Post
    Fretboard Journal is reporting on their Twitter feed that they've done an audio interview with Joe and will be publishing it today but didn't say when. I don't have a link to that at the moment but will try to add it at some point.
    Yup.

  25. #50
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Howell, NJ
    Posts
    26,875

    Default Re: Spann's Guide To Gibson 1902-1941

    I pre-ordered my copy today. I took a look at the Amazon site where they are showing the preview and it looks great. A valuable addition to the reference library on vintage instruments.

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •