Besides Amazon, etc. You can also order directly from Joe.
Besides Amazon, etc. You can also order directly from Joe.
For those of you that haven't listened to the Fretboard Journal podcast interview with Joe Spann--I'm just getting around to it today--it's marvelous. If you're following this story, it's a must hear.
Thanks for the kind words about the Fretboard Journal podcast Scott.
The pre-orders for "Spann's Guide to Gibson 1902-1941" are very strong.
I appreciate all the interest shown here at Mandolin Cafe and at other websites around the 'net.
Joe
I've got two numbers on my Gibson F-2. One on the label, and one on the wood where the neck joins the body. The number on the label is 36910. The number on the wood is 3420. Which one is the serial number?
Thanks. UP
The label carries the serial number always. The FON is stamped elsewhere usually on the neck block in round holes or on the back as seen through the lower F hole in F models.
The information provided by Utility Picker gives an excellent example for illustrating the differences between Gibson serial numbers and factory order numbers.
The factory order number (FON) is linked to production. It is the best indicator of when any pre-war Gibson instrument was produced. In this example the FON 3420 indicates that the F-2 was manufactured around April of 1916.
The serial number is linked to warranty issues. In the absence of shipping ledger information, it is the best indicator of when a pre-war Gibson instrument was shipped. In this example the serial number indicates that the F-2 was shipped around October of 1916.
So, it would seem that Utility Picker's F-2 mandolin hung around the factory for a while before being sold.
This is an example of the type of information that can be derived from the charts in "Spann's Guide to Gibson 1902-1941."
Joe
I'm really looking forward to Joe's book, too. But I already have a couple of questions based on the discussion in this thread. If the FON is linked to the date of production and the serial number is linked to the shipping date, does this mean that the serial number was added after production (e.g., was penciled in through the soundhole or, alternatively, the label was pasted in through the soundhole)? This seems pretty awkward. But maybe I didn't quite understand the foregoing comment.
I also noted Darryl's comment that speculation about mandolins being "sent back to the factory" for refurbishing would probably subside when we see the data. But there's another possibility that I gleened from the Amazon.com preview of Joe's book: namely, that Gibson instruments might have been sent back to the factory after they'd hung around a dealer's showroom for awhile without being sold. Mandolins, especially the expensive models, probably weren't selling like hotcakes by the late 1920s and 1930s and this seems like a real possibility. Has anyone raised this point before?
Excuse me if I'm rehashing something that's already been discussed. But I suspect we'll see alot more questions of this sort once we have our copies of Joe's book.
Bob
Robert H. Sayers
Hello Bob,
Your understanding of FON vs. serial number is correct. The paper serial number labels were applied during "final inspection" just prior to shipping. Completed instruments sometimes sat around at the factory for long periods of time before being shipped, thus creatng a disparity between their FON (production date) and serial number (shipping date.) This statement is based on eyewitness testimony.
Having said that, there is MUCH observed evidence that some instruments like the Loar period Master Models (F-5, L-5, etc., etc.), and Nick Lucas Specials had serial numbers reserved in advance. I have no problem with that. But the paper labels were still applied during final inspection.
Joe
I would assume that the the numbers reserved for the Loar instruments would have been sequential, or somehow different than any other number, so will that tell us how many Loar instruments were shipped? Would they have used the same style of number on an L-5 as an F-5?
The serial numbers used on Loar instruments were the same as any other in use at that time, which is to say they were a simple numerical counting number. No alphabetic letters, prefixes, suffixes, etc., etc. The serial numbers used on Loar instruments also appear to be sequential and grouped together. This is not to say the occasional "lone wolf" didn't occur.
We still don't have a complete accounting of the Loar instruments because the shipping ledgers for that period (1919-1924) have not been located and to my knowledge no original Gibson-generated registry of serial numbers exists. What we do have is various compiled lists of numerical serial numbers, produced from observed examples. The numerical serial number series appears to have run from about 2,500 through 99,999. My own personal, compiled, numerical serial number list contains 20,000 examples...about 20% of the total numbers issued.
Joe
Thanks. Joe. Were you able to gain access to and any information from Gibson's archives? I had wondered if any of that information was lost in the flooding.
No. I did not request any input from the present-day Gibson company in researching my book. My sources were the original employees and their children, pre-war company documents in private collections around the world, compiled sources like my serial number and FON lists, and publicly held records like the federal census, city directories, newspaper obits, etc., etc.
Joe
This stuff is so cool.
I'm hearing that copies of "Spann's Guide to Gibson 1902-1941" ordered from Elderly Instruments or Amazon are arriving.
Personally, I do not have any copies of the book at this time.
Those of you who asked to be placed on my waiting list will receive an e-mail with payment instructions as soon as I get the books.
Thanks for waiting patiently.
Joe
Amazon sent my shipping notice today.
Mine arrived from Elderly today; after yardwork I settled into a porch chair with a cold beer and this fine fine book. There is a lot of information here. From my time living in Kalamazoo 35 years ago, I recognize many names, faces and places. This is a great tome and a labor of love. Doug in Vermont
Joe - - - I was negligent to thank you for mentioning my post, with the query about the fon number and the serial number. I appreciate having your input on the mandolin that I've got, and an accurate dating of when it was made/ shipped/ etc. I had been told (when I bought the F-2) that it was made in 1917 or 1918. The seller wasn't sure of which, but he's a pretty knowledgeable guy when it comes to mandolins and such. I think I'll buy a copy of your book, and have it sent to him so he can get his (already pretty accurate facts) straight in the future!
It's nice to know my mandolin is older than I thought it was.
UP
Joe,
Will this be available as an E book? That information would be very handy to have in an easily accessible/portable electronic form.
Thanks,
Charles
Hello Charles,
There are provisions in my publishing contract which clear the way for the creation of an e-book version, but that will be up to the Hal Leonard Organization. I agree that an electronic version would be particularly helpful for people like yourself. Enjoyed meeting you at the recent Orlando Vintage Guitar Show.
Joe
Last edited by Joe Spann; May-01-2011 at 8:28am.
I am enjoying my book...very much...just one thing...I can't seem to find any mention of Handel tuners???
Thank you for your reply! I'm not an expert either on Handel tuners....and I also have heard that Handel tuners were used from that time period as well and discontinued because of the war? Just thought I might have been missing something...no disrespect to your hard work on this book.
Here are some interesting dates in regards to Handels. I have them being used from 1904-1915 but they do appear as late as 1918 on instruments. Also, Handel did not incorporate until 1911 and continued in business until 1946. The Handel "factory" was cleaned out about 1964, several years after Louis' death, and just about everything was thrown away by the family.
Bookmarks