More Volume From A Mandocello

[Doug D]

I need a little advice on getting more volume out of my mandocello.

I play with a mandolin orchestra and we have only two mandocello players trying to cut through about 12 mandolins. We do not play amplified so I'd like to see if I can get more volume or if I need to look for mandocello that's made to boom out a little more. (I'm considering a Weber Bighorn)

I'm playing an Eastman 805 with D'Adario EXP Phosphor Bronze strings 70-48-34-22 and use a Red Bear heavy gauge flat pick. It seems loud enough on its own, but put it in an orchestra and it seems to disappear.

Any advice out there?

[Kevin Knippa]

Does your sound disappear to the audience or do you just have a hard time hearing yourself? If the audience cannot hear all the parts being played, then the rest of the instrument sections are playing too loud. It is difficult as a player to hear how loud you are because mandolin family instruments are designed to project their sound forward.

I play an Eastman 805, too, and another member of our orchestra plays a Monteleone. We only use one mandocello at time since our group is small, but even as few as twelve mandolins can cover up a mandola or mandocello. If a single mandolin can out play a banjo in some contexts, then several mandolins can be really loud.

Someone needs to listen the the group from out in front like an audience member to really gauge if your sound is lost in the mix, as it were. Everyone can benefit from exercising a range of dynamics in their playing, so I would suggest that if you cannot be heard it is not you or your instrument, but that the other players need to reduce their volume. The more players, the less loud each needs to play to achieve a particular dynamic marking together.

[Lou Giordano]

I just raised the action on my mandolin to get it to project more. It worked. I did it in two steps. The first try helped but the second step really perked it up. I'm sure the perfect string height can only be found by experimenting with each mando.

I would try uncoated strings as well.

[Charlieshafer]

There's also the theory that a bone saddle will give you more cutting power. I use one on my 'cello and it works beautifully.

[steve V. johnson]

I don't play mandocello, but a boomy zouk.

I like a heavier pick for bringing out the actual tone of the instrument but if I'm playing with a large ensemble (or multi- zouks or guitars) I find that a lighter pick and slightly lighter strings, and arranging so that similar instruments are not often playing in unison, really help to add some definition.

stv

[Ryk Loske]

I haven't won the Mandolin Cafe~Weber drawing .... yet ... so i'm just a week away from ordering my mandocello ... but in the situations where i play guitar i boost my volume via Wegen picks. The M250 or 350 for most situations ... when somebody is napping in the back row i pull out the Fatone. I've used the 250 and 350 on my mandolins but have yet to try the Fatone.

Like Lou i raise the action on guitar ... go to a heavier guage string ... and echo Steve's advice relative to picks.

Ryk

[mrmando]

I use a heavy Wegen Gypsy Jazz pick for my mandocello. But 2 cellos to 12 mandolins is not that bad for balance. Part of the secret is to get the mandolins to play softer!

Last October, the other 2 cellists in our group entered the CMSA convention with a Gibson K2 and an Eastman. They came out with a Cohen and a Herb Taylor ... and doubled their volume in the process.

[Doug D]

Thanks all for some great advice. I think my first step will be to try a heavier pick, the action is already quite high to the point that I can just barely get a clean sound from the fret board. The heavier, uncoated strings may help as well and I may give that a try.

I, too, am waiting for them to announce the winner of the Weber drawing and maybe I will get that Bighorn after all!

Thanks Again.

[EdSherry]

I'd suggest asking the orchestra's conductor if he/she believes there's a volume imbalance across the different sections. Not surprisingly, when you play by yourself, your volume can sound fine to you. When you play with others, it's often hard to hear yourself (or your section). But that doesn't mean that your instrument (or your section) isn't "doing its job" in the overall context of the orchestra's sound.

If there really IS an overall imbalance, the solution MAY be to try to get more volume out of your instrument, but it also may be to try to add another 'cellist, or to get the other sections to quiet down.

In other words, I'd suggest being aware of the difference between "I can't hear myself as much as I would like when we're all playing together" and "my section's volume is inadequate for the orchestra's balance as a whole."

[empire]

I know this sounds silly....but if all else fail...use an acoustic Amp to amplify yourself. Face it towards the audience. Put the volume that is 'just right'...meaning that the audience will be able to hear you yet you are still 'blended' with the Mandolins and do not stick out.

My 2 cents. Dont laugh at me ya'all....

[Bernie Daniel]

I just raised the action on my mandolin to get it to project more. It worked. I did it in two steps. The first try helped but the second step really perked it up. I'm sure the perfect string height can only be found by experimenting with each mando. I would try uncoated strings as well.

In my opinion raising the action on a mandocello as contrasted to a mandolin is a different thing from a playability point of view. The two C-strings (usually 0.074") are hard enough to fret (especially for the small finger) without adding to the situation. There is just no comparison between the two instruments from that perspective. The heavier pick will certainly help but "playing harder" certainly has limitations also -- at some point you start giving up control and hence the quality of your sound is compromised.

So I agree with Ed and others who have touched on the solution -- the conductor. I have only played in a band (tuba) not an orchestra but the principle has to be the same its the conductors job to balance the sound and to make the group play in harmony. Why not discuss this with the conductor?

[Jake Wildwood]

I think the true solution is for builders to start making a mandocello that's big enough to do the job...

Look at the size of even a 3/4 cello compared to the largest guitar-style mandocellos.

You need a lot of air and soundboard to push those low notes successfully in a band/orch situation and the current instruments are built as a compromise between portability, volume, and tone.

If you need a demonstration of this, just head to any bowed music store and pluck the strings on the different size cellos: 1/2 and 1/4 sound thin and have very little volume on the C whereas 3/4 and 4/4 sound amazing, even on poor quality instruments. A guitar-shaped mandocello right now is slightly smaller than a 1/2 size cello.

So, as in most band/orchestra musical situations, if you're not loud enough, get the other players to play more softly! Chances are they're just getting carried away. We have a jam session every week here and the lineup is always changing and when it comes time for breaks it can sometimes be a huge struggle to get folks to play at an acceptable "backing" level. Everyone wants to "be heard" -- but they ARE being heard!!! TOO MUCH!

[violmando]

Doug, have you tried other strings? I really like the ring on LaBellas and Thomastiks; I was never very impressed with D'Adarrios. And is the OTHER mandocello player as concerned as you? Is he/she trying to play as loudly as they can when they need to. Many times it's also a matter of articulation. Notes come out clearer when they are shorter and plucked with a cleaner attack. Just a suggestion...If the bass player in the group plays fuzzy, he will make things worse for you, plucked or not. The more united the low section is--as in together--the LOUDER you will be.

[empire]

I still think my idea is the most practical and the best for this problem.

[violmando]

Amps are not used in mandolin orchestras and to be honest, wouldn't be practical for many of the gigs. The group often plays "away" gigs where space is at a premium; sometimes there isn't even space for one's instrument stand.

[empire]

Amps are not used in mandolin orchestras and to be honest, wouldn't be practical for many of the gigs. The group often plays "away" gigs where space is at a premium; sometimes there isn't even space for one's instrument stand.

If this is true, then why should there be any mando orchestra recital then at that puny venue...knowing that the space is not big enough? Isnt that silly?

[mrmando]

Dude, you've never played in a mandolin orchestra, have you?

[empire]

If space is so important for a mando orchestra...surely the organisers are smart enough to consider that 1st? Why book a Venue knowing that there is not enough space at the 1st place??

Read carefully what I wrote. I DO have a strong a valid point here.

[allenhopkins]

Possibly one of the problems is the sound characteristics of the Eastman. I have both Eastman 805 and Gibson K-1 'cellos, and the Eastman has a more mid-range, less boomy sound. Although its F-hole, guitar-body construction gives it a very sharp attack, the Eastman may sound "more like" the mandolins around it, rather than establishing a more defined bass line.

Thus the Eastman's sound could seem to "get lost" among the other instruments. One could say that the "cure" would be to find a more bassy mandocello, but laying out a few grand is not always feasible, right? So the back-up suggestions might be, to ask the orchestra conductor to balance the sound by getting the mandolins to play more piano, or to relocate the 'cello section to a different part of the orchestra.

The other question is whether the lack of 'cello "presence" is seen as an overall problem for the orchestra -- does the conductor/music director think that the overall sound is unbalanced? -- or whether it's mainly a problem for the 'cello players who can't hear themselves. In the second case, re-positioning within the orchestra could help.

I see that a Weber purchase is being considered; that might provide some help, with a different instrumental sound.

As to empire's prescription of amplification: while that certainly makes it possible for the 'cello to be louder, it also injects an entirely new dimension into an acoustic orchestra. If the English horn in a symphony orchestra can't be heard adequately in a particular piece, the horn player doesn't go out and get a Marshall stack and "plug in." The conductor adjusts the overall ensemble volume to allow the needed horn "line" to come through the "mix." That's the goal here, I'd say. Acquiring a more bassy sounding mandocello would, IMHO, be a better use of funds, than buying an amp and then having to rebalance the entire ensemble.

[violmando]

Regarding the space limitations for a gig...mandolin orchestras are not paid like rock bands. They often play for community events, senior citizen centers, and small venues, which means they play for what the place allows. The ensemble I played in had just a few rules...no outdoor gigs without a roof and amplification, and all indoor gigs had to have armless chairs and are preferably without carpeting. Of course, our orchestra had a set fee, depending on the gig, but since I wasn't a member of the board, I have no idea what that was. Amplification is not usually used for classical ensembles, unless there are some spatial mikes. To amp one mandocello would sound totally out of character with the music, which is why MOs also use upright basses or mandobasses instead of bass guitar.