Refinishing Tips Sought

[Treblemaker]

I am a working musician and not a skilled luthier.

I own a 1996 Flatiron Performer F mandolin that I played for years. I upgraded to a Smart F5 and mostly used the Flatiron as a back up and for playing amplified.

Prior to putting this instrument in storage I scraped the finish off the neck. Once the mandolin was stored, moisture snuck under parts of the finish and it started delaminating so I removed the hardware and scraped all the finish off with a razor blade and sand paper.

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My general question is, can anyone reccomend a practical working procedure for reviving this Flatiron?

I am aware that StewMac and other suppliers sell very high grades of sand paper and I'd like to get the prep stage of this effort completed before dealing with finish options.

So, in summary what I am asking for are tips from experienced / knowledgeable folks about what suggested sanding supplies and actions I should follow to get this rather rough instrument back to a point where it can be varnished. reaassembled and played.

Thanks,

Treblemaker
SF, CA

[Dave Cohen]

Finishing is one of the most difficult aspects of building instruments. Careful and effective sanding is essential to a good finish, but is by no means all there is to it. Things can go wrong at any step of the process, even for experienced finishers. Most of the experienced luthiers that post here could write a treatise about what you should do and what you should avoid. Before you get some sandpaper and have at your Flatiron, you should obtain some good references and read. StewMac has some references available in their book and DVD section. Iirc, Don McRostie wrote one of those. Once you have read and familiarized yourself with finishing, you may want to opt for one of the more user-friendly finishing materials, e.g., Tru-Oil.

http://www.Cohenmando.com

[Paul Hostetter]

I wouldn't even write a treatise, I'd simply recommend handing it over to someone who had real skill in finishing and let them put it right. Practicing on a good instrument, as desecrated as this one is already, would be extremely unwise. If you're asking about sandpaper, you are clearly much too far from a real solution for this situation. Don't try this at home. Pass it to someone who will do it right. It's the only "practical working procedure for reviving this Flatiron."

[Big Joe]

Paul is right. If you want it to look right when it is finished you want to have it done, not do it yourself. Finish work is not easy with all the right tools and equipment and experience. Do it yourself jobs always look like they were a do it yourself project. There are enough of us who do this on a regular basis that can do the job right and your mandolin is too nice not to have it done right. There is no way any of us could give you enough information on a post or even in a book to get the job done right.

[Stefan Netsman]

I always tell people that they can do a lot of repairwork themself. But when it comes to finishing...Paul and Joe are (of course) right. Don't do it.

[Dave Cohen]

It was my hope for the op that if he were to read about all that finishing entails, he would be able to make a realistic judgement about what he can and can't do. On the other hand, I try to avoid telling anyone sight unseen that they are not capable of doing something. Everyone has to start somewhere, and it is a mistake to make assumptions about what talents people do or do not have.

http://www.Cohenmando.com

[Spruce]

I'd antique it with a non-sprayed 'burst, with lots of wear around the scroll, F-holes, back, etc...
You're already well on your way...

A whole lot easier than trying to getting it back to pristine at this point....

[sunburst]

It was my hope for the op that if he were to read about all that finishing entails, he would be able to make a realistic judgement about what he can and can't do. On the other hand, I try to avoid telling anyone sight unseen that they are not capable of doing something. Everyone has to start somewhere, and it is a mistake to make assumptions about what talents people do or do not have.

http://www.Cohenmando.com

I certainly agree with this. I can't count the times I've been told I can't do something by someone jumping to that conclusion. I make it a point to never say that to anyone because, frankly, I can't know what they can or cannot do.
That said, I would advise against the op finishing this mandolin unless he rightfully has full confidence in his ability to get results that will be acceptable to himself as well as future owners of the mandolin. It will last hundreds of years in all likelihood, after all.

Bruce, maybe for you, but it would be easier for me to get it looking new again.

[Spruce]

Bruce, maybe for you, but it would be easier for me to get it looking new again.

Yeah, you're probably right...

Antiquing does hide a lot of flaws though...

[mandolinplucker]

The advice about taking it to someone who knows what he (or she) is doing is sound advice and you will wind up with a new appearing instrument. But--- if you are like me and like to try to see if you can do it yourself I would offer my suggestion. From the pics the mandolin seems to have some beautiful grain and would probably look good as a blond. Sand it through the grades of sand paper and make sure that it is all smooth and has no sanding scratches. Sand as little as you can. You don't want to get it too thin. Go to home depot and get a spray can of shellac. Seal it with a couple of coats, let it dry and lightly sand, but don't sand through the sealer andf back into the wood. I had to get mine at a gun shop but I am shure other places have it but you need a bottle of True Oil. It is forgiving stuff. you can brush it on or wipe it on with your fingers or a rag or spray it. Build up a few coats, let it cure, wet sand it, and buff it out with auto buffing compound . This is a very condensed explanation of the simplest finishing process that I know of. I did a new build with true oil and it is a very pretty finish and lets the beauty of the wood show with a nice amber color. Finishing is my very least favorite part of any woodworking project. You sort of get one shot at getting if right and so many chances at screwing it up. The advice given in previous posts is sound advice. That is too nice an instrument to screw up, but it is yours to play with.

[bernabe]

I was thinking along the same lines as plucker. A bad sunburst would make it look worse than it does now imo!.....if he insists on trying it himself that is. Also if he had to start over for some reason and bring it back down, no stain to deal with.

[sunburst]

Once light colored wood like maple and spruce are colored with dyes, a true blonde finish is no longer possible. Dyes soak too deeply into the wood to sand completely away. A well done 'burst will look the same on a refinished instrument as on a new one.
If the instrument was sealed before the color was applied (and we're seeing only remaining colored finish in the photos) it may be possible for someone who is really good at stripping and refinishing to make a blonde out of it, but it would be quite a bit more difficult than just "painting over it" with a 'burst.

[thistle3585]

What would be the pros and cons of a varnish finish versus a lacquer finish? I realize there is a cost difference. Is there anything to be gained in value or desirability with a varnish finish?

[eastmountain]

I'm no expert on instrument refinishing, but my experience with TruOil has been quite rewarding. I buy it at the local Walmart sporting goods department (where they sell guns). And I know there are chemical differences between lacquer and varnish but for me the biggest difference is that lacquer dries a lot quicker, allowing you to get in more coats in less time.

[sunburst]

What would be the pros and cons of a varnish finish versus a lacquer finish? I realize there is a cost difference. Is there anything to be gained in value or desirability with a varnish finish?

Either way, you end up with a re-finished mandolin, and the used market doesn't like re-fins very well, so value is lost. Market value is the biggest difference between lacquer and varnish finishes anyway, so as I see it, it wouldn't make much difference which was used in this case... except to the finisher. If he/she has the equipment to spray lacquer that's one thing, if not, many varnishes can be applied without spray equipment.

[Treblemaker]

Thanks to all who took the time to reply to my post.

I have chosen not to tackle this challenge - not out of fear or luthiery skill insecurity - but because I got a generous offer from a Cafe and CoMando going Luthier who is interested in doing a trade of emandos for this Flatiron (a custom Koa 5 and a maple topped LP shaped 8).

I own and play a Smart F5 which is plenty O manolin for me in my acoustic endeavors.

I have opportunities to play 'lectrified so this works out for me....

Thanks to the cafe for the encouragement, discouragement and trade opportunity that came from my initial inquiry....

Treblemaker
SF, CA
www.WorldWideTed.com
www.Brewglassboys.com

[thistle3585]

Remember the mandolin that started this thread? I am the one that made the trade with Ted. I just got photos this morning from the luthier that is doing the refinish. After having talked with about a dozen finish guys across the country, I was able to strike a fantastic agreement on a varnish finish. I thought I'd share them as people tend to like to see restoration projects.

I'm really excited to see how this comes out. I was planning on selling it, but now I'm thinking I'm going to need to hold on to it for awhile.

[jim simpson]

Excellent!

[BradKlein]

Nice. Who is doing the refinish?

[thistle3585]

Nice. Who is doing the refinish?

Mike Black. He is such a nice guy. I had been corresponding with him on an unrelated topic and asked him if he'd be interested in doing it in lacquer and he said, "No, but I'll do it in varnish." I couldn't pass it up.

[Marty Jacobson]

Looks great, Mike! Congrats, Andrew.

[billhay4]

Maybe I'm off base, but missing in this whole discussion is any mention of the original color of this instrument. It seems to me that refinishing an instrument that has been scraped clean like this one would be much easier if the colors were kept the same. That way, old dye wouldn't be so much of an issue.
Am I wrong here?
BTW, none of this is to call into questions the great job Mike Black has done with this instrument. I am just curious, being more than willing to "desecrate" an instrument myself by scraping off the finish. IF, that is, I didn't think it had any unusual historical value.
Bill

[Mike Black]

This is what we thought it probably looked like originally.




I seriously thought about keeping the back the same as the original with the plain solid brown color, but since it's being refinished anyway.... might as well go all out and make it look cool.

[thistle3585]

billhay,
Not off base at all. I obtained the instrument as pictured at the beginning of the thread. It actually looked a bit different than pictured. Most of the dye was out of the back before it went to Mike, because I did a bit more stripping of the finish and started to do the work myself but luckily caught myself before I got too far along. The color was suspended in finish, so it came off pretty easily. I thought it deserved a better finish than what I could do. I haven't a problem spraying bursts on my solid bodies but this was a whole different can of worms. I believe I sent Mike the photo, or a similar one, as above but I don't think I said that it had to look like the original. I looked at his site and was impressed with the quality of his finishes, so there's no complaints on the color from me. Besides, it looks a lot better than it did stripped down. Since I got it stripped down, I don't think there is a loss in value due to a refinish in my mind.

[billhay4]

Thanks, Mike and thistle.
I personally find nothing wrong with refinishing an instrument AS LONG AS it doesn't have some historical significance. Sure, it may harm the value (though not in this case), but it sure can improve the looks of an instrument and make it much more enjoyable to use.
Frankly, even instruments of historical significance have often been refinished.
Mike, what kind of finish did you apply?
Bill