Still considered an Irish Bouzouki?

[Dustin]

I am sure this topic has been brought up, but I am curious about whether to call my Irish bouzouki a bouzouki or octave mandolin.

I have a TC Irish bouzouki, strung with bouzouki strings (octave strings on the two lowest courses), but I use the octave mandolin tuning because the chord choices are more versatile and it is easier to play melodies for me in that tuning (though, the reach usually limits how fast I can play those melodies).

Well, do I still call it a zouk?

[Steve Baker]

Call it whatever you want. There are no rules, just lots of opinions.

Steve
Several CBOM thingies

[QUOTE=Dustin;924166
Well, do I still call it a zouk?[/QUOTE]

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

You can most certainly call it a zouk. I tend to user the terms differently based on the scale length of the instrument: If it's ~22/23" scale or higher, it's a zouk; shorter it's an OM. Get down to 17" or lower it's a mandola.

But wait - there's also Octave Mandola and Tenor Mandola used amongst the European players. I am at a loss as to what those mean

[ptritz]

You can most certainly call it a zouk. I tend to user the terms differently based on the scale length of the instrument: If it's ~22/23" scale or higher, it's a zouk; shorter it's an OM. Get down to 17" or lower it's a mandola.

But wait - there's also Octave Mandola and Tenor Mandola used amongst the European players. I am at a loss as to what those mean

What the European folks would normally call an octave mandola is what's usually called an octave mandolin on this side of the pond - i.e., a GDAE critter with a scale around 21" to 23" or so. What the European folks would normally call a tenor mandola is what would usually be called just a mandola on this side - i.e, a CGDA critter, with a scale usually somewhere around 15" to 17".

Pete

[Dustin]

Cool! Thanks for the encouragement! There have been some situations I have been in were people want to know more about it. I say it is a bouzouki, but tell them that the Irish bouzouki's traditional tuning is GDAD, but some of us like the GDAE tuning for various reasons.

I just was curious what others outside of Oklahoma City thought of that

[John McGann]

Opinions here.

[allenhopkins]

I've gotta say that the term "Irish bouzouki" has always bothered me, sorta like the "Mexican pizza" Taco Bell sells. A bouzouki is a bouzouki, with certain dimensions, stringing etc. It comes from Greece, mainly, and in various forms and tunings is played around the eastern Mediterranean. Irish musicians took Greek bouzoukis and strung them like octave mandolins; that doesn't make them "Irish." Now many manufacturers are making longer and shorter-scale octave mandolins, and calling the longer-scale ones "bouzoukis." They don't look all that much like the original Greek instrument -- most aren't bowl-backs -- and few of them get tuned the way Greek bouzoukis were generally tuned.

There seems to be a perceived need to differentiate between longer and shorter-scale octave mandolins, by calling some of them "bouzoukis." I have a Flatiron OM that's labeled "bouzouki" inside, but I've never considered it to be anything other than an octave mandolin.

Now we're getting "Irish tenor banjos," by which the makers generally mean a shorter, 17-fret scale, as opposed to the 19-fret scale that became near-standard 75 years ago. Why are they "Irish"? Because some musicians use them to play Irish/Celtic music. Not because they're made in Ireland, designed in Ireland, or exclusively played in Ireland.

I guess if you're marketing to Celtic/Irish music fans and players, the adjective "Irish" is a selling point. However, to me a bouzouki is a bouzouki, an octave mandolin is an octave mandolin, and a short-scale tenor banjo has no ethnicity.

[Jeff Budz]

The difference between an Irish Bouzouki and an Ocatve Mandolin is where the body joins the neck. The body on my Flatiron Bouzouki starts at the 18th fret, lets me play way up in mandolin range. On my old TrinCo OM, the body started at 12 fret, made for a much shorter working area of the neck. Of course the size of body and where it joins the neck contribute greatly to the sound qualities of the design.

Greek Bouzouki has 3 courses, a pickup and plays through an amp w/ effects, has flowered pickguard, and is awesome!!.

[John Flynn]

Allen: I completely understand and appreciate your opinion on this, but I find "Irish Bouzouki" and "Irish Tenor Banjo" very useful terms. If I am looking to buy either kind of instrument, or looking for videos of them, or looking for instructional materials on them, I can put that term into a search engine and find more of what I'm looking for and less of what I'm not looking for. If I leave the term "Irish" out, the opposite happens and I get a lot of Greek stuff or a lot of Dixieland stuff. Nothing wrong with either of those, but they're not what I'm looking for. To my mind, that is what terminology is for, and those terms work well for me. I'm guessing they also work well for lots of other people, or they would have passed out of existence.

[allenhopkins]

John, not to disagree that it's a useful "shorthand," when what one is really looking for is not an "Irish bouzouki," but a long-scale octave mandolin; not an "Irish tenor banjo," but a short-scale tenor banjo. I'm sure the terms will continue to be used, since, as you say, they're sort of the common vernacular.

I just Googled "Mexican pizza," and got a lot of hits there too. Doesn't make it either Mexican, or a pizza, IMHO.

[Graham McDonald]

Alan, when is a long scale octave mandolin NOT an Irish bouzouki?

Certainly the term has been in use for 30 years or more and in Irish music circles pretty well universally accepted, though I should go back and look at some 70s record covers to track down when the Irish, as distinct from just plain, bouzouki first appeared. I have long had a vague suspicion that it might have started off as a bit of a joke:
"What do you have there?"
"An irish bouzouki"

but it took on a life of its own...

I do enjoy these discussions

cheers

[Theo W.]

It's like calling Native Americans, Indians. People will do it, and people will think it's right on both sides of the argument! Even if it is only technically correct one way.

[allenhopkins]

Alan, when is a long scale octave mandolin NOT an Irish bouzouki?

When it's neither Irish, nor a bouzouki! You know, like the Holy Roman Empire, which was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire...

Probably it's a Chinese-made long-scale octave mandolin, quasi-similar in some ways to the Mediterranean bouzouki, but with a different body shape, different tuning, and mostly different playing technique. As far as I understand it, "Irish bouzouki" refers to the fact that 30-40 years ago, some Irish musicians acquired Greek bouzoukis, and tuned them in fifths like mandolins, rather than in fourths/third as most Greek bouzouki players tuned their instruments. This was pretty clearly where the current popularity of the octave mandolin began, as these re-tuned bouzoukis sounded really good, playing Celtic music.

So builders started making octave mandolins, mainly for the Celtic musicians, and made these instruments in a variety of scale lengths. The longer-scale ones approached the scale length of the Greek bouzoukis, so were often called "bouzoukis" (like my Flatiron), but were intended for octave mandolin tuning (and usually weren't built with the bowl-back bodies and slotted headstocks of the Greek instruments); hence, "Irish bouzoukis."

Surely not a major issue, but it always struck me as odd that instruments that weren't particularly Irish in origin, and weren't constructed or tuned like the Mediterranean bouzoukis, would be called "Irish bouzoukis." And I find the "Irish tenor banjo" equally oddly named, since the only thing "Irish" about it, is that some, and not all, banjoists playing Irish/Celtic music, prefer the shorter-scale 17-fret models, and tune them like octave mandolins GDAE rather than like violas/mandolas CGDA, which is how the tenor banjo was usually tuned when it came out in the early 20th century.

I mean, you can call an instrument whatever; there are differences in terminology between America and Europe, where "mandola" may mean what we call an octave mandolin, and "tenor mandola" may mean what we call a mandola. I just find the "Irish bouzouki" formulation a bit odd -- neither Irish, nor a bouzouki, really.

[michaelpthompson]

It's like calling Native Americans, Indians. People will do it, and people will think it's right on both sides of the argument! Even if it is only technically correct one way.

I once knew a Lakota Sioux man who referred to himself as an Indian and felt it was the correct term, preferred over "Native American." He helped organize "Indian Pow-Wows." He's a proud member of an ancient tribe, and descended from one of the most influential holy men of the Sioux nation. Are you presuming to step in from the outside and say he's technically incorrect?

Terminology's a tricky thing. I've joked with people who play Irish music on a bouzouki because of the Greek origins of their instrument. But remember, violins and mandolins are Italian in origin, banjos came from what, Germany? Accordions aren't Irish, neither are guitars. Even Uilleann pipes are adaptations of an instrument that originally came from somewhere else. Tin whistles are played in nearly every culture on earth in some form or another, it's something that might develop independently from anywhere. Same with the transverse flute. The lap harp is probably the most distinctive Irish instrument, played at least as far back as Brian Boru a thousand years ago and likely before that, but the Milesians probably brought it with them from Northern France a thousand years or more before that.

The Irish over the centuries have demonstrated an amazing ability to absorb invaders and assimilate them into their culture. Apparently, they can do the same with their music.

[michaelpthompson]

And I find the "Irish tenor banjo" equally oddly named, since the only thing "Irish" about it, is that some, and not all, banjoists playing Irish/Celtic music, prefer the shorter-scale 17-fret models, and tune them like octave mandolins GDAE rather than like violas/mandolas CGDA, which is how the tenor banjo was usually tuned when it came out in the early 20th century.

I asked the same question in my local music store a couple of days ago when I saw "Irish tenor banjo" strings next to the "tenor banjo" strings. Apparently, the difference in tuning makes it more suitable for Irish music. Not terribly surprising, since our own beloved instrument has the same tuning, and sounds great in Irish music.

[Bertram Henze]

Now we're getting "Irish tenor banjos," by which the makers generally mean a shorter, 17-fret scale, as opposed to the 19-fret scale that became near-standard 75 years ago. Why are they "Irish"? Because some musicians use them to play Irish/Celtic music.

From what I understand, not the TB is called Irish or not, but the tuning is called Irish if the tuning is GDAE, as opposed to the CGDA tuning used in Jazz/Dixieland (attention: minefield ahead - never tell a Jazz musician Dixieland is Jazz). That has no real practical background, of course - I have played Irish tunes on a CGDA TB for years.

[Bruce Evans]

Terminology's a tricky thing. I've joked with people who play Irish music on a bouzouki because of the Greek origins of their instrument. But remember, violins and mandolins are Italian in origin, banjos came from what, Germany? Accordions aren't Irish, neither are guitars. Even Uilleann pipes are adaptations of an instrument that originally came from somewhere else. Tin whistles are played in nearly every culture on earth in some form or another, it's something that might develop independently from anywhere. Same with the transverse flute. The lap harp is probably the most distinctive Irish instrument, played at least as far back as Brian Boru a thousand years ago and likely before that, but the Milesians probably brought it with them from Northern France a thousand years or more before that.

The Irish over the centuries have demonstrated an amazing ability to absorb invaders and assimilate them into their culture. Apparently, they can do the same with their music.

Omigosh! Are you kidding? The banjo (banjar) was an African instrument which morphed from the gourd-drum configuration to the rim style in the United States and went back across the Atlantic to be tweeked into the "Irish" configuration.

Other than that, I have been saying the same thing for several years to those who criticized my playing as non-traditional.

[Ravenwood]

Other than that, I have been saying the same thing for several years to those who criticized my playing as non-traditional.

Amen to the idea that terminology is a tricky thing. Bruce, I listened to your playing several years ago at the dulcimer festival in Evart and thought it quite traditional (and excellent - for those who haven't had the pleasure). It really all depends on how you see the tradition, which also speaks to John Flynn's well made point. If the terminology is commonly accepted and useful in communicating an idea, then it must be ok to use it.

[Bertram Henze]

I have played Irish tunes on a CGDA TB for years.

I would like to add that the TB was made in Japan and that I put a small sticker on the headstock which I had peeled off some souvenir I bought in Galway, saying "Guaranteed Irish"

[michaelpthompson]

Omigosh! Are you kidding? The banjo (banjar) was an African instrument which morphed from the gourd-drum configuration to the rim style in the United States and went back across the Atlantic to be tweeked into the "Irish" configuration.

Thanks for the clarification Bruce. Still maintains my point that precious few, if any, of the "traditional" Irish instruments originated in Ireland.

[bertiebeetle]

Certainly the term has been in use for 30 years or more and in Irish music circles pretty well universally accepted, though I should go back and look at some 70s record covers to track down when the Irish, as distinct from just plain, bouzouki first appeared. I have long had a vague suspicion that it might have started off as a bit of a joke:
"What do you have there?"
"An irish bouzouki"

But does it count if you have actually played Greek music on your Irish bouzouki!?

Hello Graham McDonald if you’re still reading, who I must thank for introducing me to the 10 string variety of the ‘what do you call that?’ These days I play a long-scale cittern-bouzouki (whatever it is, it’s definitely not an octave mandolin, and as for ‘cittern’, there’s another terminological can of worms!), and I was always under the impression that the term OM was adopted more-so in the US because of your rich and varied musical traditions in the mandolin department.

Whereas here in OZ, & I suspect in the UK & Ireland, the term octave mandolin is rarely heard. Call it a conspiracy of luthiers, but if it’s good enough for Messrs Lunny and Irvine to call it a bouzouki, that’s good enough for me.

Cheers - Bertie

[Dustin]

mmmmmmmm Mexican pizza! :-d

[Dustin]

When it's neither Irish, nor a bouzouki! You know, like the Holy Roman Empire, which was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire...

The "English concertina" is still considered the English Concertina, even if your model was made in China (just to compare, btw).

So Allen, I do need to ask because I don't think you were clear on what you think I should call the Trinity College "Irish bouzouki" that is tuned like an octave mandolin with the two lowest notes still octaves (other than a "hunk of junk" compared to the awesomeness of a Flatiron ?

And thanks, btw, I am craving taco bell!

[allenhopkins]

Dustin, I still like "Mexican pizza," and I'd call your "Irish bouzouki" an octave mandolin, perhaps a long-scale octave mandolin, but of course you may call it Omar or Thor's Hammer or whatever strikes your fancy. "Irish bouzouki" has become an accepted term, and as pointed out above, if you call it that most CBOM people will know what you're talking about.

Most instruments played in Euro-American music have been cross-pollinated from other countries and cultures. As far as concertinas are concerned, the adjective "English" doesn't refer to country of origin (though all my three Wheatstones were made in London): it refers to the "English system" when the two reeds controlled by a single button, one when the bellows is opened, one when it's squeezed closed and the airflow direction is reversed, are of the same pitch. Contrasting is the "Anglo" system (which, of course, means nearly the same as "English" and is short for "Anglo-German," I believe), where the two reeds (usually) have different pitches, so you get one note when you pull the bellows open, and another when you squeeze it closed, pushing on a single button. English concertinas are chromatic, Anglo concertinas diatonic -- pretty much; that's about as far as I would go into concertina stuff.

Didn't want to sound crochety; "Irish bouzouki" has become a term in general use, just as "Dobro" refers now to any resonator guitar, including those not made by the Dobro division of Gibson, and "Autoharp," though still a registered trademark of Oscar Schmidt, is used for chord zither instruments made by a variety of makers. "Irish tenor banjo" is on the way to being a general term for a short-scale instrument tuned GDAE. And what's Jewish about the Jew's harp? I sure don't know.

But it does tickle me a bit to hear long-scale octave mandolins called "Irish bouzoukis," when IMHO they're neither. Just me.

[Dustin]

darn it! I thought I was clever with the concertina example! You actually know more than I do on that subject too!

I am just trying to figure out a way to talk about the instruments to fit the short attention span of kids, yet try and be educational about it (since that is why my friend wanted us to play for the kids at her Celtic Camp). Since Irish music is constantly evolving, I have no problems calling it on octave mandolin or a bouzouki. In fact, I guess in the history of instruments, this is still really new (as opposed to the mandolin).

Man, I love this discussion!