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Thread: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

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    perpetual beginner... jmagill's Avatar
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    Default Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    Does anyone have suggestions as to what builders I might consider for a top-notch oval-holed A model mandolin?

    What I'm looking for is a well-balanced instrument that combines the warm lows and sweet highs of a vintage Gibson oval-hole sound with good volume, projection, sensitivity to a light touch, and a decent woody chop when playing closed chords. A good, throaty vintage Gibson A model would have most of the qualities I'm looking for, but I need an instrument with the longer neck (13 to 15 frets to the body) and radiused fingerboard of a modern mandolin but with the traditional 1 3/16" nut.

    I'd consider anything (including an F-style) in the under-$4K range. At the moment a Collings MT2-O is the leading candidate, but does anyone know about any others?

    Any and all ideas would be appreciated.
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    Registered User Jill McAuley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    I had a Weber Vintage A and have played a few Collings MT2-O's as well. Between the two, I'd say the Weber got nearer to the vintage Gibson sound than the Collings - neither are going to nail that sound really due to the longer necks, but the Weber had more of those qualities to my ear at least. I'm sure others will chime in with suggestions from their experience as well.

    Cheers,
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    Work in Progress Ed Goist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    Hi Jim:

    I'd suggest at least contacting Josh at Pomeroy Instruments ( josh@pomeroyinstruments.com ).

    Every Pomeroy oval hole mandolin I have played and heard has impressed me. Here is the Pomeroy F4 that just blew me away last summer when I played it at Acoustic Music Works in Pittsburgh.

    Though their standard design has a 12 fret neck join, Don & Josh Paine are quite flexible, and I'm sure they could build an oval to your specs. I also think the Pomeroy mandolins are excellent values. As of January 2011, the base price of their A-2 or A-4 mandolins was right around $2,000. Hence, even with your customization, I'm sure you'd be under your $4K threshold.

    Oh, and below is one of my favorite oval hole mandolin videos. It's Cafe regular Jill on a 2008 Pomeroy A4. Clean, well-defined tone all over the fretboard (helped of course by Jill's fine playing )



    I'm hoping Jill sees this thread and adds her comments. She has lots of experience with oval hole mandolins. (EDIT: I obviously posted this without seeing Jill's reply above)

    I look forward to seeing the recommendations of others, and seeing what you decide on. Good luck!
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    I may be old but I'm ugly billhay4's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    Bill Bussman. Here.
    Bill

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    Registered User Mandobart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    I suggest Tom Jessen at Cricket Fiddle.

    Here's an oval hole F octave he built for me:



    He builds A or F style, f hole, oval hole, 8 or 10 string, and is absolutely great to work with.

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    Work in Progress Ed Goist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    Like Bill, I too immediately thought of Bill Bussman (and of Will Kimble and Mike Black).
    However, I believe the A ovals from these three outstanding builders all have the shorter necks (12 fret joins), and I'm not sure of the ability to customize these instruments.

    Also, as of January, Will Kimble still had AO #167 available. However, it does not meet the OP's desired specs (it has a non-elevated fretboard, and a short neck with a 1 1/16" width at the nut). Here are some pics of this beauty:

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    Oh, and one more to consider: The Campanella A-440
    And I'm pretty sure the Campanella would meet your specs!
    Last edited by Ed Goist; May-07-2011 at 11:29am. Reason: Thought of Campanella A-440!
    c.1965 Harmony Monterey H410 Mandolin
    "What a long, strange trip it's been..." - Robert Hunter
    "Life is too important to be taken seriously." - Oscar Wilde
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    Barn Cat Mandolins Bob Clark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    Hello,

    I just want to echo Jill's comment about the Weber Vintage A. If you can get to a dealer that has one in stock, why not go try one? The sound really does it for me and I look for the qualities you mentioned.

    Best wishes with your decision!

    Bob

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    Default Re: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    In that price range you might consider Stefan Passernig, a Collings alumnus. Also, for 1k more, Tom Ellis. Both are Austin, TX builders (along with Collings).

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    Registered User Pete Martin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    Bussmans Old Wave ovals are far and away the best I've played. GREAT value for the money as well.
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    Default Re: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    I didn't see Peter Coombe mentioned above. I have had two of his oval-hole A's--very nice instruments, especially the most recent one, a "Goldfinch" (Australian native-tonewoods ). Check out his website.

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    Default Re: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    The above is not very helpful IMHO.

    Reading the requirements, it seems to me that you are asking for the impossible in terms of sound -i.e. a mandolin with all the qualities of an oval hole and a F hole rolled into one. Do you want a "hybrid" sound or a "vintage" sound? Longer neck and raised fingerboard will give you a hybrid sound, i.e. you will get the chop and throatyness, but loose a lot of the warmth and sweetness of a typical vintage Gibson. If you want the vintage sound, then they won't chop terribly well. Some you can chop, but that quality is unpredicable and is nothing like an F hole mandolin. It is, however, possible to make an oval hole that projects well. There is one for sale on my web site right now. I make oval hole mandolins with the vintage sound, as does Bill Bussmann. My long necked oval hole mandolin still has the vintage sound, but raising the fingerboard will change it more towards a hybrid sound so I don't do it. The sound clips on my web site show the sound of the long necked oval hole mandolin is almost identical to my short necked mandolins, and I don't know of anyone else who has managed to do this before The nut width is no problem, that bit is easy. Some compromises might need to be made, it is extremely unlikely you will be able to get everything you want. "A good, throaty vintage Gibson A model" - they don't exist! The vintage Gibsons don't sound "throaty" at all, but a hybrid (or F hole) will have that throaty quality, and will most likely chop better. What is more important?
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    Default Re: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    Gail Hester. Look her up on here. I've had one for two years and haven't had any mandolin acquisition syndrome ever since!

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    Default Re: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    Under $4000. ($2600.) I would choose Bill Bussman (Old Wave) without a doubt! $4000. I would definitely choose Andrew Mowry !

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    perpetual beginner... jmagill's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    Quote Originally Posted by peter.coombe View Post
    The above is not very helpful IMHO.

    Reading the requirements, it seems to me that you are asking for the impossible in terms of sound -i.e. a mandolin with all the qualities of an oval hole and a F hole rolled into one.
    First of all, thanks Peter. Your informed comments have given me a lot to think about.

    I don't really want ALL the qualities of an F-hole and oval-hole in one, just a vintage oval sound with a longer, more playable neck, really. I said I'd like the chop to just be 'decent,' and the 1920 Gibson A-model I'm currently borrowing has a chop that would suffice. Chop is farther down my priority list than good balance with warm, solid bass, and sweet sustaining highs. I don't plan on playing a lot of bluegrass. These days I mainly play Celtic stuff with a few classical and jazzy things thrown in for variety's sake.

    Quote Originally Posted by peter.coombe View Post
    Do you want a "hybrid" sound or a "vintage" sound?
    Good question, and the answer is, "Maybe. I'll know when I hear it." I've always been attracted to instruments that sounded a bit out of the mainstream. Instead of a Martin or Gibson, I play Gallagher, Circa and Bashkin guitars. Thirty years ago, when I was playing mandolin for a living, instead of a Gibson, I had John Monteleone make me this particular Grand Artist, ser.#44, and later, a second Grand Artist just like it, but with an oval hole. Neither sounded like Gibsons, but had Monteleone's unique voice. I also had a Sobell mandolin for a while. Nowadays, I've got a soft spot for those bass-y, tubby ol' Gibsons with clear, ringing trebles, but I've always been willing to be seduced by a unique new tone that makes my ears melt in ecstasy.

    Quote Originally Posted by peter.coombe View Post
    Longer neck and raised fingerboard will give you a hybrid sound, i.e. you will get the chop and throatyness, but loose a lot of the warmth and sweetness of a typical vintage Gibson. If you want the vintage sound, then they won't chop terribly well. Some you can chop, but that quality is unpredicable and is nothing like an F hole mandolin. It is, however, possible to make an oval hole that projects well. There is one for sale on my web site right now. I make oval hole mandolins with the vintage sound, as does Bill Bussmann. My long necked oval hole mandolin still has the vintage sound, but raising the fingerboard will change it more towards a hybrid sound so I don't do it.
    Well, for the record, i didn't specify that the fingerboard needed to be raised, I just want a longer, slimmer neck that allows me to play closed chords up on the 12th fret without that thick clunky heel getting in the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by peter.coombe View Post
    It is extremely unlikely you will be able to get everything you want. "A good, throaty vintage Gibson A model" - they don't exist! The vintage Gibsons don't sound "throaty" at all, but a hybrid (or F hole) will have that throaty quality, and will most likely chop better.
    I guess perhaps "throaty" means different things to different folks, and I should have used another word. The chop on my borrowed A-model sounds throaty enough for me, and is a secondary consideration. A round, sweet, ringing sound is what I'm after, with a more playable neck. Anything more "hybridized" in the sound would be an additional intriguing factor to consider. There are so many good builders around these days, but it's harder than ever to find examples of their work to try out, so I thought I'd ask you all for help in narrowing the search.

    Thanks again everyone for your insights; keep 'em coming!
    Last edited by jmagill; May-08-2011 at 10:04am.
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    Registered User rnjl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    Will Parsons made just such a mandolin for me, and he'd come in well under $4K, I think. Here is a picture of me and my mandolin (and our poodle) on Will's website. It's a pleasure to play and sounds great.

    The mandolin, not the poodle.

    Neal

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    Registered User Jill McAuley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    Wow, nice looking mandolin there Neal, and a great photo as well!

    Cheers,
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    Default Re: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    Thanks Jim, that certainly clarifies your requirements. It seems to me that you are after a longer neck mandolin with the tubby bass and clear ringing trebles - i.e. the "vintage" sound. Not easy to do with all the structural changes that occur with the longer neck, but it is certainly possible. Check out the sound files of my long neck oval hole mandolin on my web site (standard mode), is this the sort of thing you are after? This one certainly has a tubby base and clear, sweet ringing highs. The sound is very close to my short necked oval hole mandolins, but not quite identical. The short necked oval hole mandolins have more of a "solid" sound and feel and I think it is impossible to get a long neck and short neck to sound absolutely identical, but you cetainly can get close. I really liked that mandolin, it has a slightly richer tonal quality that is most appealing, and it soon went out the door. I would very much like to make more like it, and play around with some different woods. Need more time.
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    Work in Progress Ed Goist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    Great looking mandolin, Neal! Congratulations.
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    Capt. E Capt. E's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    The couple of Ellis A4 Oval mandolins I have had the pleasure to play are just fabulous. I don't think you could go wrong with one. Fiddlers Green has one in stock right now: http://www.fiddlersgreenmusicshop.co...ins/ellis.html
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    Work in Progress Ed Goist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt. E View Post
    The couple of Ellis A4 Oval mandolins I have had the pleasure to play are just fabulous. I don't think you could go wrong with one. Fiddlers Green has one in stock right now: http://www.fiddlersgreenmusicshop.co...ins/ellis.html
    Ah-oh...I just drooled all over my keyboard at work!
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    perpetual beginner... jmagill's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt. E View Post
    The couple of Ellis A4 Oval mandolins I have had the pleasure to play are just fabulous. I don't think you could go wrong with one. Fiddlers Green has one in stock right now: http://www.fiddlersgreenmusicshop.co...ins/ellis.html
    I saw that one early in my search, and my old music partner has a terrific Ellis A-5, but it's too rich for my blood.

    One other option I'm considering, is to buy the A-model I'm borrowing and have a radiused fingerboard installed on it. This mandolin is a simple, entry-level A model without the original pickguard and case, and it's not pristine, so we're not talking about modifying a rare antique here. The neck wouldn't be longer, but at least it would be more playable.

    I'd also like to beef up the E-string a bit, so I was planning on a bone insert on the saddle under the E. To 'muddy-up' the bass a little, maybe nickel and/or flatwound strings. Any thoughts about how well those changes would work to achieve those goals?
    Last edited by jmagill; May-10-2011 at 6:16am.
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    Mano-a-Mando John McGann's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    A real sleeper is the brand Arches- I played one of their oval holes that sounded as good or better than any vintage A I've ever played- and it was priced around $1200. I was shocked by the sound quality, especially in an instrument in that price range...no financial or personal interest/connection whatsoever here, it was a random grab at a music store that was delightful (I didn't buy it due to lack of funds, though...)

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    Capt. E Capt. E's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    The Ellis A-4 Oval is somewhat different than the A-5 with its f holes. I'd call Ben at Fiddlers Green and talk to him about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmagill View Post
    I saw that one early in my search, and my old music partner has a terrific Ellis A-5, but it's too rich for my blood.

    One other option I'm considering, is to buy the A-model I'm borrowing and have a radiused fingerboard installed on it. This mandolin is a simple, entry-level A model without the original pickguard and case, and it's not pristine, so we're not talking about modifying a rare antique here. The neck wouldn't be longer, but at least it would be more playable.

    I'd also like to beef up the E-string a bit, so I was planning on a bone insert on the saddle under the E. To 'muddy-up' the bass a little, maybe nickel and/or flatwound strings. Any thoughts about how well those changes would work to achieve those goals?
    Jammin' south of the river
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    Registered User Jill McAuley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    Pretty awesome looking Kimble A-O just went up in the cafe classifieds (NFI on my part), though it possibly has a neck that joins at the 10th fret, old Gibson style, so not what your desired specs are. Still, I'm drooling over it!

    Cheers,
    Jill
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    Default Re: Oval-holed mandolin builders?

    Found this from searching, of all things, my name and ukulele. Great looking mandolin, I had one like that made for me, and it was... off... thus thrusting me into the world of uke. No big deal, I still have an old Gibson A, and I love that Parsons of Neal's ( who spells his name correctly....)..

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