Stephen Perry is a genius!

[Scott Tichenor]

Things seem to be getting a bit personal from more than a few of you here. I'm going to assume you all have read, understand and are willing to abide by our posting guidelines as a part of your membership of this forum--that goes for both sides of this discussion. We've been patient but that has worn thin. Continuance of some of what's going on here is going to result in removal of some folks at some point. Proceed if you must, but understand we will enforce the posting guidelines for this site.

[Marty Henrickson]

The reference was to the expensive picks, etc.

You're absolutely right. I stand corrected, and apologize for my overly sarcastic response.

I do find this thread highly interesting and somewhat educational, despite the unfortunate tension. I hope that the discussion can proceed as an exchange of ideas and opinions.

[A 4]

We've been patient but that has worn thin.

I hope the thread can continue for awhile. I would love to see Stephen Perry's video of the methods he uses. Early on in the thread, I smoothed the f-holes of my Fullerton Gloucester with an auger bit file. I'm willing to try things on that mandolin, and I thought it made a noticeable difference for the better.

I looked at the f holes on my J. Bovier, and they already have a pretty substantial bevel on the inside.

On the video Stephen Perry posted, I would say I can hear a difference after smoothing the f-holes, but could not hear further changes after the bridge was adjusted. In my case, using external PC speakers.

[Chuck Naill]

You're absolutely right. I stand corrected, and apologize for my overly sarcastic response.

I do find this thread highly interesting and somewhat educational, despite the unfortunate tension. I hope that the discussion can proceed as an exchange of ideas and opinions.

No problem, Marty. I agree that the discussion, what actual discussion took place, is interesting. Hopefully we can continue to exchange ideas and perspectives/what we hear, etc.

[hisongz]

I don't post much here, but I have read this entire thread, and
I do know Steve well. I have taken a new guitar out of a case at his
shop, played it and then handed it to him. He did a few (as yet secret)
things to it, and it was a much better sounding guitar across all the
strings. It took him 5 minutes to make the alteration. I do believe
Steve studies these things incessantly, and we who use his services
are the recipients of his hard work.

I'm picking up a new mandolin from him Friday, and I'm going to play
it and then have him round the F-hole edges. If it sounds better to my
ears, that's all that will matter to me, and I'll bet it will.

Good topic!

Ron

[Chuck Naill]

As I have been suggesting, there is a fundamental, grassroots difference in the way I approach optimization and the way apparently others go about the process. This does not mean that I am correct and others are not correct, but there is a difference to be noted.I know what tone and playability I am after, I know what it takes, and who to take it to to get the results I prefer. I used the pre War Martin as an example and as my benchmark. Let me quickly add that we all do not have the same benchmark. However, I would think that it would be important to know what you want before you decide on making any modifications.

What I am reading is that others do not know specifically what they want (Please let me add that this is not a slam on anyone. We all have to start somewhere). They are willing to try anything where it be picks, strings, or this or that process. What I am reading is that a particular benchmark is not yet established in some peoples minds.

What I am also reading is that some think that because physical laws apply in other areas, those laws must be applicable in other processes and must, by necessity, equal something positive.

I am also reading that some hear things others do not. This does not necessary mean that those who hear something change have better hearing. Just handling an instrument can change the tone. The weather/humidity can completely change the way a violin responds.

This discussion is not about supporting one person's ideas or that person's ears. The real discussion is the one you have with yourself as a player, what you are after, and what does it take to get those results is, in my opinion, is the discussion that we all have to have with ourselves.

[Stephen Perry]

Let's limit this discussion to post-warehouse/factory setup of the instrument itself, and to things that a typical player can easily do. So far we have:

Nut and string slot improvement (presented by Mr. Naill without expansion)

F hole improvements (lots still to discuss on why this works - I presented a brief outline)

Bridge improvements, Chuck pointed out the easy technique of contact point beveling (does help sound), and I outlined in brief the transverse tuning (8 points) tying to advanced marimba bar tuning (linked supra).

We've had links at least to marimba, Schleske's plate edge work, and mentions of Spears, Fry, Smith (unpublished), and perhaps others. I suspect interior work requiring tools is best left out of this discussion in detail. It's a different game really.

On F holes, I strongly suspect that overall rounding and polishing would be best, but prefer (at least on traditional instruments) the crisp outer edge. I'd like some additional information on how plate edge effects influence plate vibration. I'm not sure where I would find this. Bud Purvine's work is quite interesting in that respect. There exist ways to manipulate edge and boundary reflections. Purvine's approach is one of probably many. Anyone have any further information?

I'd also be interested in more information on port edges in general, since port edges are accessible to anyone and very easy to work with. Anyone have insight into the loudspeaker world? I've bounced into it enough to make some excellent budget speakers, but haven't studied it in detail.

If someone wants, I can describe and demo some of the Fry type balancing of treble/bass and increasing brilliance. I won't unless there's a specific request.

[Kevin K]

Stephen,
Consider this a request

[Marty Henrickson]

If someone wants, I can describe and demo some of the Fry type balancing of treble/bass and increasing brilliance. I won't unless there's a specific request.

I'm interested, if it's not too much trouble.

On F holes, I strongly suspect that overall rounding and polishing would be best, but prefer (at least on traditional instruments) the crisp outer edge.

I was wondering about this. As I smoothed the inside edges of the f's on my Gibson, I noticed some *slightly* uneven areas on the outside that most peole probably wouldn't even notice.

Also, several posts ago, someone used the word "bevel". To me, that is something altogether different than what you are suggesting. It does raise the question of difference between flat corners, "eased" edges (per your technique), chamfered edges (slight bevel only on corners), bevelled edges (many variations possible - inside, outside, compound...), or "bullnosed" edges. Any thoughts?

[Stephen Perry]

Edges: I don't know. I can make a case for a clean sharp break, but that doesn't seem to work the best in my trials. The even 1/2 round might be optimal.

This is likely not a simple question, and may well tie to at least four aspects of plate/port edges:

1. Termination of P waves in the plate. I suspect a taper to a point (like a wave trap) would reduce reflections the most.

2. Effect of S waves at the plate edge. A taper would tend to allow S waves to move the edge a lot. Probably not good. Stiffening the edge seems to make things better in my limited trials.

3. Reflection of waves in the boundary layer. I suspect that the bevel or rounding of the edge reduces this. Reducing this reduces distortion. See, e.g., Bud Purvine's work.

4. Generation/distortion from irregularities in the edge contour. This may be the most substantial effect.

I find useful thinking of the general term "energy." Energy moving towards the hole edge from the plate has to do something. It can transfer into the adjacent medium (air), reflect, or be used up (producing heat). Transfer and reflection influence sound. The question becomes, what happens to various types of wave energy in and immediately over the plate surface when it hits differently shaped and different texture edges?

What happens when air pumps over the edge of the port, and how does surface form and roughness impact this? Imagine air pulsing by the edge of a razor blade. Turbulent eddies form parallel to the edge. As these form, waves radiate across the surface of the blade in the boundary layer. Some of the energy transfers into the blade itself. This doesn't necessarily relate to the signal (the pulsing air) very much, so I see limiting the formation of eddies and keeping any effects less turbulent as likely to be "good."

Back to work, I'll put together bridge tap and Fry technique videos in the next couple of days.

[fatt-dad]

The world is made of two types of people - tweekers and non-tweekers. I've been both but with age, gravitate toward the latter.

Interesting thread. Thankfully, the longer I play my non-tweeked mandolins the more accustomed (and pleased) I am with their familiar tone.

Considering that I play for therapy, fretting about f-hole polishing would detract from my therapeudic benefit.

I kind of agree that if a few minutes of tweeking can derive measureable (and favorable) tone improvements, it's a failing of the shop to omit this process.

Let's lift a glass to our differences of opinion!

f-d

[Tbone]

Does anyone have any pics of before/after rounding the f holes? This seems interesting, I might like to try it on my mando.

[Stephen Perry]

The amount I do it would not show up. Just a light bevel with a file, then a pass with fine paper. Bevel is probably 0.3 mm. I also smooth up the hole in general.

[usqebach]

As I've spent more than one hour being throughly fascinated with this thread and it's derivatives, I thought I'd chime in with my good-natured and somewhat misdirected "proof" that Mr. Perry is indeed a genius (not that that was his desired focus of the thread).

I stopped by his shop about 5 or 6 years ago when he first moved out by the lake in Friendsville. I had been back to playing the fiddle about a year or so after a 20 year - post high school orchestra layoff. I started messing around with one of the violins in the shop, regaling him with my version of "Fisher's Hornpipe." He comes over, takes the fiddle out of my hands (hint, hint) and puts a mandolin in them.

(me) "What's that?" (seriously, I had no idea)

(Steve) "A mandolin; it's tuned just like a violin. You can play it right now."

(me) "Why?"

(Steve) "This thing (mandolin) will give you hours and hours of pleasure. That thing (violin) will only give you years worth of frustration!"

Wiser words have never been spoken to me.

Unfortunately, I was too entranced with my own "limitless potential " to listen. I am now the weakest link in a mediocre-at-best old time string band who would practices at least a couple hours a day in the vain attempt to play a fiddle anywhere near in tune! Had I spent all that practice time on a mandolin, well, I'd still pretty much suck, but at least I wouldn't scatter a crowd with my playing!

Anyway, next time I'm in the area, I'll make it a point to drop by his shop and let him do whatever he wants to any of my instruments.

Jim

Thank you for your time and attention. I'll now return you to the previously scheduled thread.

[Chuck Naill]

(Steve) "This thing (mandolin) will give you hours and hours of pleasure. That thing (violin) will only give you years worth of frustration!"

Very poor and inaccurate advice if accurately attributed. I don't know if Steve plays either, but the violin is a wonderful and versatile instrument and worth anyone's time in learning.

[usqebach]

Well, criminy, I was just trying to inject a wee bit of self-deprecating humor into this highly technical thread.

Chuck, I did want to say that I followed the link on to your blog, and very much enjoyed the music that you had posted there. I am assuming that you played all the instruments on the tunes, and if so, even more kudos for your versatility.

I did recount the conversation as best as I remember it, and the point that I was hoping to make was that for a 40-ish (at the time), late starter who had a family and a career, the sheer amount of effort required to achieve the level of proficiency on the violin I hoped to achieve, was simply not possible.

However, picking up a mandolin, I could play all my fiddle tunes in tune, learn some chords, and "boom-chick" along with many of an old-time jam and contribute nicely to the overall effect.

At the risk of more self-flagellating I think I can accurately defend the concept by referring you to our band's website which is linked in my signature. If you go to the "music" section and listen to a couple of our downloads (our webmaster/banjo player will completely freak in that I think we get about 2 hits every other moon), and listen to the clip of "soldier's joy," well, that's me playing the fiddle after about 5 subsequent years of practice. I'm NOT in tune, and have pitiful rhythm, no backbeat at all (After the mortification and shock of hearing myself recorded wore off, I've spent the last 2 years hopefully improving both). However, if you click over to "Willow Garden," that's me on the mandolin. Might not impress this bunch, but I think that for a couple years noodling around with the thing, I'm a contributor, not a detractor to the music.

I think he was hearing me play my fiddle, assessing how far I had to go, and suggesting a much less difficult path to making enjoyable music.

At least, that's what I took from the interchange.

No offense intended to any one who has a different opinion.

[Paul Busman]

I like that fiddle/mandolin story. I have a fiddle that I play poorly, and a low end mandolin that I play half well-- enough to pick out tunes in our little Irish band. It would take a LONG time for me to feel comfortable taking the fiddle on stage. Every once in a while, I tune it up and work/struggle through a few tunes, then end up back with my mandolin.

[ccravens]

Very poor and inaccurate advice if accurately attributed.

PLEASE let's do as Scott demanded and avoid the negativity, and putting down of Steve.

Life is good. Playing mandos (and fiddle) is fun. This thread is interesting. Let's just accentuate the positive!! We can do it!!


Who else has mando tinkering stories to add? I love the ones I've heard so far!

[MikeEdgerton]

I'm going to chime in here and say that that was pretty much over the line.

[Charles E.]

[Willie Poole]

You mean we aren`t supposed to post anything negative on here?....Good, now I can post my You-Tubes and not get any flack back about them....Lol

Willie

[Kevin K]

Chuck,
What's your issue? Your negative posting is really a drag. Folks share their experience, opinions, skill, and you look for a chance to degrade them. We all could learn if we talk less and listen more.

[ccravens]

listen to the clip of "soldier's joy," well, that's me playing the fiddle after about 5 subsequent years of practice. I'm NOT in tune, and have pitiful rhythm, no backbeat at all I think he was hearing me play my fiddle, assessing how far I had to go, and suggesting a much less difficult path to making enjoyable music.

Jim,
You're fiddle playing on Soldier's Joy isn't bad at all, so you really need to stop the self-flagellation.
No need to hurt yourself over a thread. Also good mando on "Wilow Garden."

The home page of your website is priceless!

[Heliocentric]

I've really enjoyed reading this thread for the most part. Some great information and theories. Just to muddy the waters even more will bevelling the edges of an oval hole mandolin have a similar affect?

[Stephen Perry]

Any port should benefit from work. I don't notice as much on an oval hole. On an F hole mandolin there's much more edge and much of that edge is close to and square to the bridge area. That may play into its importance. Ports in general are very interesting. They're an influence on waves within the plate, boundary layer waves over the plate, plate movement; create diffraction effects; and act as a direct radiation source for energy within the box. A look at loudspeaker design proves most illuminating. A look at patents is pretty amusing, too!