Quilted vs. Flamed Maple

[Marcus CA]

On mandobacks, is the difference strictly visual, or is there a tonal difference, as well?

[Spruce]

Well, both can be light in weight or heavy, slab or quartered, and be of the same species, namely Acer macrophyllum or Bigleaf maple...
There are even trees that display both quilted and fiddleback...

They can also be radically different...

So-ooo, as much as we'd like to, it's almost impossible to generalize...

[Capt. E]

There is birds eye as well: ...and even rather plain grain with very little figure such as you see on many old Gibsons. It all seems to work. Then again, take a look at some of Tom Ellis' work...I have no idea what you call some of those other than "incredible"! Well beyond the word "flame" for a descriptor.

[Ryk Loske]

From Weber's site under Facts ... Tone Elements ...Back and Rim Woods:

"Curly Maple:
Dense tight cell structure with varied grain and horizontal banding or flame. Great crisp projection with punchy volume and tone continues to mature with age.

Quilted Maple:
More open grained than curly maple. Quilt has unique watermark-like flowing lines that lends itself to one piece backs and more vibrant colors. More relaxed tones than curly maple."

I've heard similar comments relative to guitar construction. But ... then ... of course .... it's all 99% in the skills of the luthier.

Ryk

[billhay4]

To address your initial question, I don't think there are tonal differences per se. In other words, a piece of flamed maple can have many different tonal qualities. So can curly and bird's eye. The shape of the grain is only one factor in determining the tonal characteristics of a particular piece of wood. Bruce was dead on; it's impossible to generalize.
Bill

[Big Joe]

Tom Ellis is essentially describing the general difference from Eastern hard maple and softer Western maple. While each piece of wood will have its own voice, and it is more than just the wood for the back that determines the final tonal outcome, one can expect certain characteristics from certain types of wood. That is exactly what Tom is explaining. The Western maple can give a bit darker tone than Eastern maple. Charlie Derrington would not allow any Western maple to be used for his mandolins because he did not want the darker tone associated with Western maple.

I have a nice piece I wanted to use for a mandolin. I brought it in to use and he would not let me take it into the shop. He said no Western maple was going to be used in any mandolin there. However, he loved Tom Ellis mandolins and the woods Tom used. He just said it was fine for Tom, but not for him.

As far as the degree of figure aiding tone, that is mostly myth. Straight grain woods can actually often be better than highly figured wood. However, you are talking such a slight difference that most may never hear the difference. The highly figured woods are not better sounding and really don't sound that different due to the kind of figure. As Spruce said, there are far more items in the wood that determine the final outcome than the degree or type of figure. Use what you like if it seems to be a solid piece of wood having the characteristics you like.

[Spruce]

Quilt has unique watermark-like flowing lines that lends itself to one piece backs and more vibrant colors. More relaxed tones than curly maple."

Ahhhh, that's why the violin makers call it "hippie wood"...

[bjewell]

Quilted maple tends to be softer than flamed or birds-eye maple.

[Spruce]

Quilted maple tends to be softer than flamed...maple.

That is it's reputation, but that has not been my experience...

[Jose_L]

Which is red and sugar maple ? I've seen these on builders description of the sides and back they use ? Are these different than Quilted & Flame Maple ?

So you have red, sugar, birdseye, quilted, flame.... which is the hardest to softest ?

Jose

[Jim Hilburn]

I haven't seen even a fraction of the bigleaf that Bruce has, but still in my limited experience there's always been a great deal of difference between BL and even the softest red maple I've encountered. It seems to have a completely different make-up and consistancy. When carved it can seem ridiculously plyable and make you wonder how you'll ever get a good sound with it yet I seem to always have very good results with it.

[draino]

So you have red, sugar, birdseye, quilted, flame.... which is the hardest to softest ?

Jose

This is confusing wood species with names that have been applied to various patterns observed in wood grain: red and sugar are different species of maple (I think) -- when people talk about red, silver, sugar, eastern, western, hard, big-leaf, European, and all the latin names, they're talking about the species of the tree.

Birdsey, quilted, flamed, tiger-striped, figured, curly, fiddlebacked etc., etc., are all descriptors of grain pattern. My (limited) understanding is that curly/tiger/flame/fiddleback type figure is seen in lots of different species; quilted mostly (only?) in western big-leaf maple (which I think is often called soft maple . . . though its anything but soft, from the pieces I have handled). Birdsey -- I dunno what species it appears in.

[Big Joe]

First, maple is maple. That is the first rule. All the figure and decoration that goes into it really is not an indication of tonal quality or desirability for a particular use. It is not a determinate of hardness or much else relative to tonal output for an instrument. However, the prettier woods are easier on the eye and are often more important than anything to the end purchaser. Builders would often rather build with nicer wood and customers like to buy instruments with nicer wood figure. That is the main purpose for all that.

Flame maple really refers to a method of artificially applying figure to wood used during the early part of the last century. They would wrap rope or rags around a piece of wood and then set the rope on fire. It would burn the wood in such a way to make it look like the wood was nicely figured. That allowed them the ability to sell the product easier than if it was sold as just the plain wood that actually was under the false figure. It is kind of like photo flame a century earlier. From this came the term "flame maple" as a marketing strategy for the fake figure in the maple. It really came from that. Everytime I hear the words "flame maple" I think of that story. Real wood geeks get upset when one says "flame maple" and prefer to call it "figured maple".

That process is not used in most builders products anymore, though some import products may have photo flame or other artificial means of giving figure. Highly figured wood is not always easy to get. You can't plant a "flame maple" tree or a "birdseye maple" tree. It is a maple tree and you won't know what you get until you actually work the wood to its final stage. Then, what you have it what you get. You can begin working a seemingly plain piece of wood and when you get it where you want it you may have some very nice figure. You may also start with nice figure and by the time you get where you want it may be fairly plain. What may be in the wood in blank form is not what you get when it is finally worked to the final size. It is often a wonderful surprise ... often good, occasionally bad.

[Jim Hilburn]

Since the type of quilt we see mostly these days is only found in western bigleaf, you can basically use the terms synonymously. Much the same way that birdseye is commonly found in sugar maple. Bruce has probably seen trees that break all these rules though.

[Spruce]

You can't plant a "flame maple" tree.

I think you can, and I'd like to think that I have...

I think figure is all about genetics...
And I think you can clone your favorite figured maple tree, and get similar results....

I've air-layered branches of highly figured trees and planted them....
I'm hoping that before I'm gone I'll have an answer as to whether or not this is all doable...

I've heard that in Hawaii someone is doing this with koa trees...
Love to find that article again...

[Jim Nollman]

don't know anything about growing maples, but I do know that "layering" has been the go-to method to keep the most spectacular roses and apple varieties alive for hundreds of years. Famous old roses (the gallicas,the albas, the damasks, etc) have uniquely gorgeous flowers. Unfortunately, the plants are either sterile or the seeds produced don't carry forward the desired characteristics.

Layering solves the problem. To buy one of these named old roses, is to tap into a well-established historical process. You are actually buying a layering of the original plant, which in certain cases, originated as a mutant seedling that grew in Napoleon's wife's garden in 1805.

I'd put my money on Spruce's layered maples producing great wood.

[Marcus CA]

I seem to always have very good results with it.

Jim, I remember very well meeting you at Mandolin Symposium a few years ago and playing one of your new mandos that you had brought along with you. It looked and sounding stunning! When you let me try it out, I definitely did not feel worthy.

I didn't realize that my question would yield such rich answers from so many.

[Nick Triesch]

RL Givens mandolins were many time made from very plain maple. Not fancy at all in most cases. But man, did they have great sound! Nick

[Marcus CA]

RL Givens mandolins were many time made from very plain maple. Not fancy at all in most cases. But man, did they have great sound!

I just got to play one of his from the late '70's last week. Loved the tone, but the flat fingerboard didn't work for me.