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Thread: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

  1. #26
    Work in Progress Ed Goist's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    One more quick post to emphasize that I really do not want to be negative about this builder or his mandolins. I'm simply questioning how he chooses to communicate his mission and message.

    Anyone who has seen my (often long-winded) posts on the Cafe knows that I am a vocal advocate for small shop domestic mandolin builders.

    I really do wish him all the best.

    I couldn't find a website for him (or really much at all on-line), but I did find this section on an interview published in the Charleston (WV) Gazette. Looks like his "The Bluegrass" F5 mandolins go for $3,000:

    INNERVIEWS: ; My mandolins are louder; Pickers beat a path to Davis Creek mandolin maker

    "He built a better mandolin. Now the bluegrass world beats a path to his door. Glen Dean Cecil hasn't budged from the Davis Creek hollow where he grew up. Despite the remote location, pickers from all over find their way to his door, eager to plunk down $3,000 for The Bluegrass, a painstakingly handcrafted mandolin with a mother-of-pearl logo inlaid on the neck. He promises a louder sound, a distinctive resonance achieved with West Virginia curly maple or Brazilian rosewood no longer available in the United States. In the summer, he plays with his bluegrass band, Front Page. Every winter, he builds four mandolins in the workshop beside his mountain- hugging home..."
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  2. #27
    Closet Banjo Picker P.D. Kirby's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Ed I just did a google search with the parameters of the builders name and the word mandolin and it fetched a whopping 516,000 hit's. It would appear that there is Mandolin life outside of the Cafe, just sayin. I don't have an opinion about his Mandolins mostly because I have yet to play one but it would appear those that have speak very highly of them. I have been around Bluegrass for most of my 54 years and in the circles I play and jam in not too many local Mandolin pickers are members here and a lot of folks I play with don't even have or care to use computers. Most of the Mountain folks around here would rather play the Mandolin rather than talk about it.
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  3. #28
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Seems like a nice old guy who didn't like the way his mandolin sounded (anyone else out there) but rather than searching for the "best" mandolin and constantly upgrading he decided to take his apart and make it sound better, at least to him. From that experience he decided to start building his own mandolins. This sounds like a recipe the Mother of invention uses in her kitchen. While he doesn't have the same mass marketing department as Gibson, there have been a few people who have liked his product enough to choose it over a Gibson, Weber, Northfield, and all the other great builders out there. He was explaining what inspired him, so in a way Gibson is responsible for inspiring another builder like they have done so many times during the past 100 years, some worked for the company and others developed their own style and brand.

    All mandolins are not created equal that's why there isn't just one Gibson model that sells for the same price. So I say its great to have all the choices in life and welcome The Bluegrass to the list of choices available.

  4. #29
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Just to reiterate: if Mr. Cecil has so completely transcended Gibson design and construction, why do his mandolins resemble Gibson F-5's so closely?

    Just askin'...
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  5. #30
    Registered User John Flynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    Just to reiterate: if Mr. Cecil has so completely transcended Gibson design and construction, why do his mandolins resemble Gibson F-5's so closely?

    Just askin'...
    We've had threads ad nauseum about that. It's because that's the appearance that most customers want. And it's not so much because Gibson did it - as has been said, there were years Gibson didn't always do it well, it's more because that's what Monroe played, that's what got popular and that's what people are used to seeing as a mandolin. I remember the hue and cry when Rigel came out with the CT-110 came out: "Oh, that just looks weird!" thread after thread. But it was a great mandolin. So now the audience has builders in a bind: Either they copy Gibson in apprearance or they lose part of their market. Even the really big names that truly have transcended and improved on the Gibson design: Gilchrist, Nugget, Dudenbostel, and others, still keep the Gibson appearance.

    What I'm just askin' is why to people get their backs up whenever anyone criticizes Gibson? Are you saying they're perfect? Are you saying they're sacred? Are they paying you to do their PR?

  6. #31
    Registered User G. Fisher's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    How did a thread that started out asking only if anyone knew anything about "The Bluegrass" mandolin and a video clip spin into this???
    “Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something.”

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  7. #32
    Registered User John Flynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by G. Fisher View Post
    How did a thread that started out asking only if anyone knew anything about "The Bluegrass" mandolin and a video clip spin into this???
    Are you kidding? If you've been on the Cafe' since 2002, you should be used to this sort of thing by now!

  8. #33
    Registered User G. Fisher's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by John Flynn View Post
    Are you kidding? If you've been on the Cafe' since 2002, you should be used to this sort of thing by now!
    Unfortunately you're right I've gotten used to topics going off on a totally different direction.
    “Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something.”

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  9. #34
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by John Flynn View Post
    ...What I'm just askin' is why to people get their backs up whenever anyone criticizes Gibson? Are you saying they're perfect? Are you saying they're sacred? Are they paying you to do their PR?
    No. No. And, no. (Maybe I should bill Gibson for advocacy services? Don't think so.)

    What I am saying, fairly clearly I think, is that Mr. Cecil in his interview stated that he owned a Gibson mandolin which "sounded like a cigar box," so he took it apart, and, using his "God-given talent" as a machinist and jet engine mechanic, built a mandolin that avoided all the "mistakes" Gibson had made in building the instrument, using materials and processes he calls "his secrets."

    Given this description, I just found it trifle ironic that the mandolin(s) he produced, look a lot like Gibson F-5's. Not that there's anything wrong with that; he may have built a better F-5 than Gibson did/does, like those "really big names" you cite that "truly have transcended and improved on the Gibson design." Their mandolins look a lot like Gibson F-5's as well.

    Mandolins don't have to look like Gibson F-5's. There are many small-builder instruments out there that don't, from luthiers like Monteleone, Giacomel, Campanella, etc. Mandolins designed to compete in the bluegrass market (and I assume a mandolin labeled "The Bluegrass" is designed for that market) do have extra incentives to adopt the F-5 silhouette, as you point out.

    On the other hand, I don't hear the builders you mention, saying, "the reason I started building mandolins is that Gibson mandolins 'sound like cigar boxes.'" I'm sure they feel that they're building F-5-style instruments that are better than current Gibson factory products; otherwise, they wouldn't be competing with high-end Gibsons. Some may agree, others may disagree -- without being paid Gibson flacks, or thinking Gibson's instruments are "perfect" or "sacred."

    'Nuff said, on my part. It just struck me odd that a builder who made a point of saying Gibson mandolins are inferior (or at least that the one he owned was inferior), would make an instrument that looked so much like the "inferior" instrument he was criticizing.
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  11. #35
    Registered User G. Fisher's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    I think you need to listen to what he said in that clip again. He doesn't say what you claim he does. Listen carefully to the first 18 seconds.
    “Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something.”

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  12. #36
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by BLUERIDGEBORN View Post
    Ed I just did a google search with the parameters of the builders name and the word mandolin and it fetched a whopping 516,000 hit's.
    I'd like to know how you did that ... a properly configured search yields only 102 hits, whereas an unconfigured search yields 189,000.
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  13. #37
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    I think you need to listen to what he said in that clip again. He doesn't say what you claim he does. Listen carefully to the first 18 seconds.
    OK, here are some verbatim quotes from the interview soundtrack:
    "Being a retired machinist and jet-engine mechanic, I had some God-given talent."
    "I come
    [sic] up with some things that really shook people up that make mandolins."
    "I had a Gibson mandolin, and it sounded like a cigar box. I decided to take that mandolin apart..."
    "I took the mandolin apart, and I seen
    [sic] a lot of things that was wrong with it -- reason it was like it was."
    "I've got some secrets that are in the wood and things that I did that that enhances
    [the volume]..."

    I think I have these right. Check me if I'm wrong. This is spending a lot of time, on what I meant as a somewhat offhand observation of the irony of at least partially copying the design and construction of a mandolin that "sounds like a cigar box."

    I'm now getting fascinated by Mr. Cecil and his "The Bluegrass" mandolins, so I may have to buy one...
    Allen Hopkins
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  14. #38
    Registered User G. Fisher's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    He states right away. "I got into this by meeting a friend and he taught me the trade."

    He didn't just go at it from his machinist and jet engine background.
    “Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something.”

    My Mandos:
    1981 Lloyd LaPlant F5 #6
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  15. #39
    Celtic Bard michaelpthompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    OK, here are some verbatim quotes from the interview soundtrack:
    "I come [sic] up with some things that really shook people up that make mandolins."
    "I took the mandolin apart, and I seen [sic] a lot of things that was wrong with it -- reason it was like it was."
    Don't know anything about all this, but it is definitely fascinating that this supergenius who knows everything that's wrong with mandolins built by one of the greatest geniuses of the industry can't even handle the basic grammar of the English language.

  16. #40
    Registered User dcoventry's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Ah, free speech. Ain't it grand? You know, we fight for that right.

    Don't believe everything you read/hear.

    Can Gibsons be improved upon? Lloyd Loar thought so and we all seem to like the result. What's the next great improvement going to be? I don't know, but folks better be working on it. And hopefully we will recognize improvements a little faster and with more appreciation than old Lloyd got back in his day.
    Last edited by dcoventry; May-29-2011 at 2:13am.
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  17. #41

    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by michaelpthompson View Post
    Don't know anything about all this, but it is definitely fascinating that this supergenius who knows everything that's wrong with mandolins built by one of the greatest geniuses of the industry can't even handle the basic grammar of the English language.
    He wasn't criticizing all the mandolins of whoever you refer to, but one mandolin and it is pretty much accepted that Gibson built a lot of crap during the '70's at least so I'd suspect he had one of those. His lack ability in the fine points of of the English is totally irrelevant and is just a nasty catty comment.

  18. #42
    Registered User dcoventry's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Mike,

    I, too, thought the comment on his english was a bit much. This man speaks his folky dialect just perfect like. Michael, such judgements from a guy in a touk. Let he is without fashion faux pas cast the first derision.

    That being said, I thought sub-titles would have been helpful and funny.
    Last edited by dcoventry; May-29-2011 at 2:46am.
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  19. #43

    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by michaelpthompson View Post
    Don't know anything about all this, but it is definitely fascinating that this supergenius who knows everything that's wrong with mandolins built by one of the greatest geniuses of the industry can't even handle the basic grammar of the English language.
    Then we are surely seeing it discussed in the right place, in a forum that sometimes features endless pontification from some people who occasionally fess up to having played mandolin for a ridiculously short period of time - and whose expertise exists nowhere but in their own imaginations. The same people spout regurgitated third-hand wisdom from their far more legitimately experienced forum participants, which means we have to learn to distinguish between the genuinely knowledgable and the deludedly enthusiastic who have convinced themselves that they know as much as the real experts do.

    None of which, I have to emphasise, is too stiff a price to pay for the genuine wealth of knowledge shared so freely here, and which I value so highly.

    I too find the claims of the maker of 'The Bluegrass' mandolins a bit specious, but then again, other people here have heard instruments he has created, and loved them. That makes for an interesting set of circumstances, and I am glad to have read about him and his instruments.

    ron
    Last edited by Ron McMillan; May-29-2011 at 4:55am.

  20. #44
    Registered User 8ch(pl)'s Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Canadian Luthier Doug Woodley was also a machinist. I haven't heard much about him lately and suspect he may no longer be building. Hope I am wrong.

  21. #45
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Flynn View Post
    We've had threads ad nauseum about that. It's because that's the appearance that most customers want. And it's not so much because Gibson did it - as has been said, there were years Gibson didn't always do it well, it's more because that's what Monroe played, that's what got popular and that's what people are used to seeing as a mandolin. I remember the hue and cry when Rigel came out with the CT-110 came out: "Oh, that just looks weird!" thread after thread. But it was a great mandolin. So now the audience has builders in a bind: Either they copy Gibson in apprearance or they lose part of their market. Even the really big names that truly have transcended and improved on the Gibson design: Gilchrist, Nugget, Dudenbostel, and others, still keep the Gibson appearance.

    What I'm just askin' is why to people get their backs up whenever anyone criticizes Gibson? Are you saying they're perfect? Are you saying they're sacred? Are they paying you to do their PR?
    John, I was not "defending" Gibson --I merely pointing out that this individual made a rather immodest statement (I think that is fair) by claiming, with no known prior experience in woodworking or luthiery to know what Gibson with over one hundred years of company existence and thousands of combined years of woodworking/woodworker skills did "wrong". Perhaps this was another Paul via Damascus moment? But I doubt it.

    And in fact, the man did say that the Gibson "sounded like a cigar box" -- I guess I would be justified to get my back up on that one -- but I didn't and I don't!
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  22. #46
    Registered User G. Fisher's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    John, I was not "defending" Gibson --I merely pointing out that this individual made a rather immodest statement (I think that is fair) by claiming, with no known prior experience in woodworking or luthiery to know what Gibson with over one hundred years of company existence and thousands of combined years of woodworking/woodworker skills did "wrong". Perhaps this was another Paul via Damascus moment? But I doubt it.

    And in fact, the man did say that the Gibson "sounded like a cigar box" -- I guess I would be justified to get my back up on that one -- but I didn't and I don't!


    He states right away. "I got into this by meeting a friend and he taught me the trade."

    He didn't just go at it from his machinist and jet engine background.
    “Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something.”

    My Mandos:
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by G. Fisher View Post
    He states right away. "I got into this by meeting a friend and he taught me the trade."

    He didn't just go at it from his machinist and jet engine background.
    Yes perhaps the friend was Lloyd Loar...
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  24. #48
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Maybe LLoyd Loar was his friend, however the one Loar made for John Reischman (some say the best of the best of Loar's work) has been improved by way of a new radiused fret board, (improved in John's opinion), which illustrates the point just because is says Gibson on the peghead doesn't mean it can't be improved upon by someone with a different point of view.

  25. #49
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluman View Post
    Maybe LLoyd Loar was his friend, however the one Loar made for John Reischman (some say the best of the best of Loar's work) has been improved by way of a new radiused fret board, (improved in John's opinion), which illustrates the point just because is says Gibson on the peghead doesn't mean it can't be improved upon by someone with a different point of view.
    Except that playability is not what this discussion is about. Its about tone and/or volume. If you listen to the video he took the back off to see Gibson's problems -- you can check the fingerboard without that. Also you have created a bit of a canard I suggest. I certainly did not suggest that a Gibson mandolin could never be improved upon. But not just anyone is likely to do that and this luthier and Steve Gilchrist at different levels of the craft I expect.

    If someone is going to improve on existing Gibson mandolins I expect it will come from this kind of effort over many years of hard work not removing the back and making an inspection.
    Bernie
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  26. #50
    Registered User G. Fisher's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    Except that playability is not what this discussion is about. Its about tone and/or volume.
    No, this discussion started with a question of if anyone had experience with "The Bluegrass" mandolins. Then it changed direction with questioning the ability of the builder and other smarmy comments throughout the thread.
    “Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something.”

    My Mandos:
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