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Thread: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

  1. #1

    Default 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Hi all.
    I played briefly in a jam in the Uk last night, and saw/heard a very nice sounding F-style mandolin with the inscription 'The Bluegrass' in Gibson-style script on the headstock. The inlay was a nicely done fern, and it was a dark and well-used sunburst colour. I didn't get chance to talk to the owner as I had to leave for a gig, but I'm curious about who might have made this instrument. It had THAT tone. Has anyone come across these?
    Tim
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  2. #2

    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Reckon that would be Glen Dean Cecil of Charleston, WV:
    http://www.wchstv.com/traveling/2011/twv110120.shtml

  3. #3

    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Thats the one! He talks on the link about one of his mandolins being in Derbyshire, England; I'm pretty sure that must have been the one I saw. Thanks for the info!
    Tim
    Tim Mundy
    www.slipperyhill.co.uk
    2002 Gibson F5 Fern
    1920 Gibson A2
    2005 Gibson A5L
    Rigel A+ Deluxe Custom
    1926 Gibson TB1 Tenor Banjo
    1963 Epiphone TF28 Tenor Guitar
    Ovation MM868 Mandocello
    1987 Rob Armstrong Mandolinetto

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    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Interesting. Not to sound skeptical but for a machinist and a jet engine mechanic to take a Gibson mandolin apart and "to see what is wrong with it" strikes me as a person with no shortage of self esteem? What part of being a machinist or a jet engine mechanic is training for wood working, luthiery or acoustics? Just wondering.

    I wonder if any professional bluegrass musicians play a "The Bluegrass" mandolin?
    Bernie
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    Brentrup Evangelist Larry S Sherman's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    I like the name "The Bluegrass" about the same as "The Loar". How about simply "The Mandolin"?

    Larry

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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    Interesting. Not to sound skeptical but for a machinist and a jet engine mechanic to take a Gibson mandolin apart and "to see what is wrong with it" strikes me as a person with no shortage of self esteem? What part of being a machinist or a jet engine mechanic is training for wood working, luthiery or acoustics? Just wondering...
    Little-known fact: Lloyd Loar's great-nephew Cosmo Loar, experienced mandolin luthier, took apart a GE J79-11A turbojet engine "to see what was wrong with it" and make improvements. Cosmo was last seen when his plane's engine exploded over central Iowa...

    At least when you "improve" a mandolin, you don't fall from 30 thousand feet.
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    Registered User John Flynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    Interesting. Not to sound skeptical but for a machinist and a jet engine mechanic to take a Gibson mandolin apart and "to see what is wrong with it" strikes me as a person with no shortage of self esteem? What part of being a machinist or a jet engine mechanic is training for wood working, luthiery or acoustics? Just wondering.

    I wonder if any professional bluegrass musicians play a "The Bluegrass" mandolin?
    Pete Langdell of Rigel mandolin fame was a machinist by trade and has said he applied a lot of that expertise to making mandolins. Heck, Gilchrist started out making surfboards! I think the mental aspect of what it takes to be good at one craft, like patience, curiosity, precision, passion, etc. can be applied from one craft to another.

    I doubt many pros play "The Bluegrass," anymore than would play "The Loar." The whole idea behind those kinds of brands is to make some of the characteristic bluegrass tone, and appearance, available at price points that are much lower than what a pro might be willing to pay. I do agree that names like "The Bluegrass" and "The Loar" are kind of hokey, but I guess some people like that sort of thing.

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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Well more power to him but Gibson has been making mandolins for over 100 years. Of course they have had their darker periods but its pretty hard to imagine someone with no experience looking in there and "seeing what they did wrong". Really? I wonder if the graduations looked wrong or maybe the f-holes were in misplaced? Anyway...........

    Still it looks like he is selling them so good on him. I just thought that the statement sounded "cheeky". Then again, perhaps he dismantled a 1970's F-12.............
    Bernie
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    Little-known fact: Lloyd Loar's great-nephew Cosmo Loar, experienced mandolin luthier, took apart a GE J79-11A turbojet engine "to see what was wrong with it" and make improvements. Cosmo was last seen when his plane's engine exploded over central Iowa...

    At least when you "improve" a mandolin, you don't fall from 30 thousand feet.
    Thanks for the under reported news story. I did miss that one. However the fact that he made it to 30,000 feet before it went kerr-blamo could be considered a small, albeit fleeting, victory I suppose?
    Bernie
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    Wood and Wire Perry Babasin's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Glen Dean Cecil is in the Cafe builders database (information needs updating) and the instrument looks and sounds pretty good... I'd like to hear it played by a hot-shot, but it sounds pretty good. Don't most builders think they have something special going on with their design, or they're striving to capture the special magical vintage combination of woods and construction details? Heck sakes, there's a thread a mile long about Steve Perry and Mando-voodoo, going on right now! The guy is a small custom builder in the U.S. Isn't that what a lot of folks here are always looking for? Just sayin'...
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    I guess what we're reacting to is his stating that his "God-given talent" as a machinist enabled him to take his "cigar box" Gibson apart and spot "all the things that were wrong with it," which he fixed with the "secrets" that only he, of all the world's mandolin builders, has been able to develop. To be a creative craftsperson, one has to have a healthy ego, and believe that one has the ability and insight to create a very good product, perhaps even one that's better than anyone else's. He may be smarter and more talented than any of the well-known Gibson "names," or alternatively, he may have acquired a really clunky Gibson that had much room for improvement, which he recognized and, well, improved.

    But there's a touch of hubris in someone saying that Gibson has built mandolins for a century, but he, as a machinist and jet engine mechanic, was readily able to see where they went wrong and correct all their mistakes. I'm sure he's made some great instruments (though I haven't seen or played one), but coming across a tad more modest wouldn't have hurt.
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    The guy sounds comically arrogant.

    But on the other hand, I'm similarly amused by some people's belief that there's no room for improvement in a 90-year-old mandolin design.

    At the very least, you would think we still wouldn't be building headstocks with decorative protrusions that might as well have been designed to break off.
    PJ Doland
    1923 Gibson Snakehead A

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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    He might know jet engines, and maybe even luthiery, but he sure doesn't know marketing...
    Why on earth would one have a product position statement that risked disenfranchising a large percentage of one's future potential customers?...Particularly when one's market demographic is as limited as 'mandolin players who might purchase a new domestically made mandolin'?
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  18. #14

    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Mandolin players are a funny lot. It seems a large number of us (I include myself here) judge instruments not just on their own merits, but based on our feelings towards the person that built the particular mandolin under consideration. Maybe its because on this forum we're left to judge a large number of instruments we've never heard/played?

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    Registered User John Flynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Goist View Post
    He might know jet engines, and maybe even luthiery, but he sure doesn't know marketing...
    Why on earth would one have a product position statement that risked disenfranchising a large percentage of one's future potential customers?...Particularly when one's market demographic is as limited as 'mandolin players who might purchase a new domestically made mandolin'?
    Sounds to me like his marketing is pretty good, if he has sold overseas and to so many parts of the US. His statements remind me a lot of statements made by the folks who made "Moonbeam" mandolins a few years ago. They took a similar approach and those sold pretty briskly for a while. I see his statement as being pretty effective for a certain demographic. I think there are a lot of people out there who want a Gibson, but can't afford one. If they can't have one, they want one that sounds like one, American made. Now, here comes a guy who has a pitch who says, hey, not only can you afford an American, hand-made mandolin that sounds like a Gibbie, you can have one that sounds even better!

    If you are going to go after "the big dog's" market, you can't be an also-ran, you've got to say you're better. What do you want him to say, "Well, I don't have as much experience as Gibson, but I took one of their 'dark years' instruments apart and I sorta copied it, and I don't charge as much...wanna buy one?"

    I'm not saying I buy into his pitch, but I can see what he's going for and it seems to be working.

  20. #16
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by draino View Post
    Mandolin players are a funny lot. It seems a large number of us (I include myself here) judge instruments not just on their own merits, but based on our feelings towards the person that built the particular mandolin under consideration. Maybe its because on this forum we're left to judge a large number of instruments we've never heard/played?
    Well, we are a funny lot,* sometimes, but I for one am not judging Mr. Cecil's mandolins, which may be as excellent as mandotim stated in the first post. I'm just reacting to an independent builder stating that he has the "God-given talent" to correct Gibson's design and construction errors with "secret" procedures only he understands. What interests me is that he's still building a mandoln that looks a lot like a Gibson F-5; guess those Gibson "mistakes" didn't include putting a scroll and points on a carved-top, f-hole mandolin...

    * “I was walking down the street one day and noticed this man a lookin’ at me, and I said “Hey Mister, did you give me a funny look?” He said “No, lady, you got a funny look, but I didn’t give it to you”. -- Cousin Minnie Pearl
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    However the fact that he made it to 30,000 feet before it went kerr-blamo could be considered a small, albeit fleeting, victory I suppose?
    Not if he started at 50,000 feet!
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by John Flynn View Post
    ...snip...What do you want him to say...snip...
    I believe a more effective marketing approach would be to praise the "Big Boy" for their history, design innovations, and track record, but to also point out that as a small shop, he can offer an enhanced level of attention to detail, personalization, innovation, and instrument specific modifications that a larger manufacturers can not.

    This product position both illustrates a clear advantage his product offers over the "Big Boy" producer, while at the same time does not risk alienating Gibson fans.

    I wonder what percentage of ALL folks in the market for a $2,000+ mandolin are fans of Gibson? It has to be quite large. Why insult the brand that these folks admire, and in many cases idolize?

    Besides, speaking poorly of your competition always reflects poorly on you.
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    I just thought that the statement sounded "cheeky". Then again, perhaps he dismantled a 1970's F-12.............
    To judge from Craig's List, an Epiphone MM50 or Flatiron Festival F2 counts as a "Gibson" even though it's a budget brand made in China. So too with a '30s Kalamazoo. i'd have to know more about the instrument he took apart before I pass judgment on his hubris. And anyhow, I've heard some cigar-box instruments that sound pretty darn good. For a cigar box.
    Emando.com: More than you wanted to know about electric mandolins.

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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    I dunno, the guy doesn't seem so arrogant to me. Maybe that Gibson he had was built in the early 70s . . . even die-hard Gibson fans would probably agree that those instruments weren't great. He's a man of faith acknowledging what he believes is the source of his ability as a woodworker/craftsman. His "secrets" didn't seem to me like snake-oil -- it was an editorial interview with a local news station, not "LuthierTV"

    Clearly one of his instruments sounded good enough to grab a fellow pickers attention in a jam!

  25. #21
    Registered User John Flynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    "Besides, speaking poorly of your competition always reflects poorly on you."

    Excuse me? Have you ever seen...political ads? And there lots of product ads that do it also. I could give you a long list. Speaking poorly of the competition may reflect poorly on in SOME circumstances, it works great in others. You may not like it, but it is one of the huge market strategy choices.

  26. #22

    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by John Flynn View Post
    "Besides, speaking poorly of your competition always reflects poorly on you."

    Excuse me? Have you ever seen...political ads? And there lots of product ads that do it also. I could give you a long list. Speaking poorly of the competition may reflect poorly on in SOME circumstances, it works great in others. You may not like it, but it is one of the huge market strategy choices.
    I have seen political ads and to me it speaks very poorly of the party placing the ad. Enough to cost them my vote as a matter of fact, it says loads about character.

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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Bunting View Post
    I have seen political ads and to me it speaks very poorly of the party placing the ad. Enough to cost them my vote as a matter of fact, it says loads about character.
    Personally, I agree with you. But from a marketing perspective, it cannot be denied that negative ads can and do work, or they would have been abandoned long ago. True, they can backfire, but when used right they can be very effective. The Mac v PC ads are an example from the product world.

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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    John, suffice it to say that marketing is not an exact science.
    I do believe very firmly, as a marketing professional, that when you mention your competition as part of a marketing strategy you shift the focus of your audience from you to them. I have always directed my marketing campaigns, and those of my clients, away from this. It hasn't always worked great, but well enough.
    I also think this strategy is doubly dangerous when you choose to mention the clear "Biggest Dog" in the pack.
    Although Glen Dean Cecil may be a great guy and he may build killer mandolins, I'll end by pointing out that a Google search of his name mentioned on the Cafe results in only "about 14 hits".
    It's probably safe to say that the extent to which a mandolin producer is mentioned here is a viable, measurable indication of the effectiveness of their marketing efforts.
    Others may disagree. Marketing is not an exact science.
    I wish Mr. Cecil all the best with his "The Bluegrass" mandolins.
    Last edited by Ed Goist; May-27-2011 at 7:27pm.
    c.1965 Harmony Monterey H410 Mandolin
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    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'The Bluegrass' Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Goist View Post
    John, suffice it to say that marketing is not an exact science.
    I do believe very firmly, as a marketing professional, that when you mention your competition as part of a marketing strategy you shift the focus of your audience from you to them. I have always directed my marketing campaigns, and those of my clients, away from this. It hasn't always worked great, but well enough.
    I also think this strategy is doubly dangerous when you choose to mention the clear "Biggest Dog" in the pack.
    Although Glen Dean Cecil may be a great guy and he may build killer mandolins, I'll end by pointing out that a Google search of his name mentioned on the Cafe results in only "about 14 hits".
    It's probably safe to say that the extend to which a mandolin producer is mentioned here is a viable, measurable indication of the effectiveness of their marketing efforts.
    Others may disagree. Marketing is not an exact science.
    I wish Mr. Cecil all the best with his "The Bluegrass" mandolins.
    Agreed! I wish him well also -- one should have fun in retirement if possible. I also wish Gibson would buy one of those "The Bluegrass" mandolins and find out what they are doing wrong!
    Bernie
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