"May I join the Irish music session?"

[Gelsenbury]

Can improvisation work in a session at all? With so many players at the same time, I imagine that an attempt at improvising would fall into the category "worse than useless". There are solo players like Robin Bullock or Simon Mayor who work something quite beautiful around traditional tunes, but none of it would be appropriate for a session. Playing in a small group, perhaps the odd flourish would work - but again, this is in a small group.

And then you get the sort of "improvisation" that I did at session: trying desperately to find the tune and being quite glad that no-one could actually hear me! :D

So, essentially, I have nothing against clever arrangements or improvisation based on traditional material. But within a session, how can anything work unless everyone plays the tune as agreed?

[Bertram Henze]

There is improvisation and improvisation. Both lead away from the strict path of the notes, but...

Type 1 is a slight variation of the melody, made to accommodate instrument-specific necessities or to put more emphasis on some clever ornamentation. It still sounds Irish, the tune is still recognizable. It supports the tune to make it more interesting to audience and other players.

Type 2 takes the tune into another genre (blues, punk, you name it) and makes other players stop in puzzlement. It is no more Irish and not recognizable without verbal announcement. It supports the ego of the improvising player.

Do I have to say explicitly which one is acceptable and which is not? In our session we have one blonde but resolute lady (she plays fiddle and looks exactly like Meg Ryan); in her real life she is a deputy headmaster of an elementary school. Whenever someone turns up and tries type 2 improvisation she'll make him feel like a kid again
No written rules required. Everybody plainly feels if it's wrong, wrong things get excreted from the session by soft but irresistible means..

Joining a session is a bit like visiting a National Park - you're welcome to walk, look and maybe camp, but don't try to build a golf course and a shopping mall.

[Bertram Henze]

If I walked into a pub and saw a load of people playing from music stands, I'd probably walk out again.
Not really, I'd go to the bar.

Happened to me once. A bar in Kirkwall had announced a session - when I went there, there were chairs and music stands in rows for approx. 20 people. Turned out to be a rehearsal of the local S&RS. I stayed anyway, given that nothing else happened music-wise on the island (it was in October). Tried to accompany on my OM, they were very friendly, placed sheet music in front of me and asked what my instrument was called.

[foldedpath]

Improvisation at the macro level (i.e. anything more than subtle variation) just doesn't work in a session. One obvious reason is that nobody else is going to sit out, or play quietly, to allow space for an improv solo to be heard. So why bother? The music just isn't structured for it, in the way that Blues, Bluegrass or Jazz are. If someone enjoys improvising, these other genres are better suited for it.

The other reason to avoid improvisation is because it can distract the other melody players. Each session is usually a mix of stronger and weaker players. Anyone who isn't completely familiar with a tune will be listening closely to the stronger players, to pick up the notes and stay on track. Imagine trying to do that, with the person next to you "improvising" around the melody line.

Finally, there is that fine line between "hey, I'm improvising!" and just noodling around the melody because someone hasn't bothered to learn the tunes being played. I've experienced that a few times at sessions, where people want to join on a social level, but aren't really interested enough in the music to take it seriously and learn the tunes.

[michaelpthompson]

I might be a tad improvisational for the strictest of Irish seisuns, for sure, since I do like to throw in harmonies now and again, but I definitely respect the idea of playing ITM relatively "straight," not trying to "riff over the changes" with improvised melodies. It's hard to legislate taste and talent, and seisuns that adopt a really strict code of rules in an attempt to avoid any unwanted variations, are definitely going to appear a bit unfriendly to newcomers who don't have as much of a background in the genre.

There's a balance, and each session finds it in a different place. I've complained before about the "TRAD Police" who ruin a session with rigid rules and enforcing their own ideas of what's appropriate as if they were the law. But I've also played in sessions where the tradition was drowned out by ignorant newbies who think it's a jam. We should all be so fortunate as to find (and keep) a session where the balance meets our own preferences.

[Nick Triesch]

Wow Zoukboy, the rude thing keeps on going! I'll just stay away from you folks and keep having fun. Nick

[Bertram Henze]

Late, but at last, it all comes into perspective for me:

I've also played in sessions where the tradition was drowned out by ignorant newbies who think it's a jam.

OK, now that's a scenario I was lucky to avoid so far. Newbies forming a majority and hijacking the session - that would make me turn and run. I was not born to be kindergarden cop; would do no good, neither to the newbies nor to me - in the end I'd be a pharisee and never notice. ITM depends on a critical quorum of peers.
Maybe we ITM musicians should place a warning on our YouTube videos: "Don't try this at home".

Wow Zoukboy, the rude thing keeps on going! I'll just stay away from you folks and keep having fun. Nick

Rudeness is a matter of perception mismatch between two persons, but so is fun. Fun in an Irish session is defined as "everybody having fun", not as "one single person having fun".

[Bren]

Everyone's improvising to some degree in a pub session, and if they aren't having fun,there's not much point to it.

But if you don't know the tune and insist on jamming over it regardless, it'd be like going into a Bb jazz jam on Night in Tunisia and playing loud 3chord Gmaj bluegrass.
Can't see how that's much fun for anyone. Funny, yes :-), for a short while

[Jill McAuley]

Another thing the "jam" minded folks need to bear in mind is that irish trad music is a dance music - a jig is a dance, a reel is a dance, a hornpipe is a dance etc etc etc. One of the reasons the tradition calls for pretty much sticking to the tune is so that the dancers wouldn't be thrown off by someone deciding to get all "creative" to the detriment of the collective players and dancers also involved - sure there'd be anarchy on the dance floor if that was the case! While there may not be dancers at your average pub session, that doesn't change the fact that we're still playing dance tunes.

As Roger pointed out, it's not just a collection of notes - if you treat it as such, and start getting all wacky with things because that's what YOU enjoy, then what you're playing will most likely no longer resemble a jig, or a reel or what have you, it'll just be a collection of notes....

Cheers,
Jill

[JonZ]

Jam sessions are as varied as the people who play in them. As with individuals, you can accept them as they are, try to influence them, try to change them to the point where you become annoying, or break off contact. Some groups are dysfunctional, and sometimes you are the one who is dysfunctional.

[allenhopkins]

Good points, Jon, and one should also remember that when one enters an established musical event -- whether it's Irish traditional, bluegrass, jazz, blues, whatever -- as a newcomer, one would do well to start with a lot of listening, testing the waters, picking up cues, etc.

Nick does have a point about how people respond to a new, somewhat nonconformist musician; one can be gently guiding, giving friendly advice, or really rude and dismissive. And I do agree that saying he's "trumpeting his ignorance," as Zoukboy did, is ruder than we need to be. Probably just a bad fit for a more "trad" Irish traditional seisun, and happier at a looser jam which has some Celtic mixed in...?

[Jim Nollman]

Why would anyone want to play a celtic tune just about note for note how it was played for 300 years?

I learn tunes by ear. My technique for learning a new tune, is to visit the itunes store, search for a recorded version of the new song. I find a version that appeals to me, download it, then stick an earbud in one ear and play the tune over and over and over until I get it just like the recording.

My fiddle player does it differently. She has been playing these tunes since childhood. She is a sight reader, so she brings out a pile of fiddle tune books, finds the tune, plays it perfectly the first time, and keeps the book around, until she affixes the tune to memory.

Here's the thing. The tune she's learned from the book is always slightly different from what i just learned off one recording. Both versions are recognizable to both of us, but there's some phrase, some turnaround, some syncopation — something — that's different. Sometimes she'll tweak her version to accommodate my version. Sometimes, vice versa. Sometimes one of us has to transpose, because our versions are in different keys. Sometimes we retain the slight differences, because they create a pleasing harmony.

We have followed this same procedure to affix 60 or 80 tunes to finger memory. I conclude that there is no right version. Take any song you like. Go to the itunes store, and you may find 20 versions, including from Irish groups. I guarantee that every version you download has something unique from every other version.

I do acknowledge that if I was not playing in my own band, but in an Irish pub, I would be expected to learn the version being played at that moment. But reading this thread confuses me. I'm wondering if i would be rejected at a pub, if i was asked to start a tune, and played some "alternate" version I learned off an Irish recording. Or another alternate version i learned off another Irish recording.

So what is "authentic "? Is it anything else besides how the local guys at the pub learned it? Some here would enter that local session and stay, hoping to get swept up, learning it the way that pub plays it. When in Rome.Other players here, would leave it alone, and instead go find players who also acknowledge the moving target that is these tunes, and get swept up finding different versions every time they play it.

[foldedpath]

I do acknowledge that if I was not playing in my own band, but in an Irish pub, I would be expected to learn the version being played at that moment. But reading this thread confuses me. I'm wondering if i would be rejected at a pub, if i was asked to start a tune, and played some "alternate" version I learned off an Irish recording. Or another alternate version i learned off another Irish recording.

It just depends on how far off your version is, from what the session is used to playing. Small variations don't matter; nobody cares. Everyone learns from different sources, and a few note differences here and there don't matter, as long as the notes harmonize and you're not actually in a different mode or a different rhythm pattern.

If you've learned it in a different home key than the session usually plays it in, they might or might not want to shift gears, especially with diatonic instruments that don't do that easily, like keyless flutes, whistles, pipes, and diatonic accordions. We fretted instrument players (like fiddlers) get spoiled about easy key/mode changes.

In my experience (and just talking about the local sessions around here), the only thing that really throws people is if you've learned a completely different setting of a tune from the one played at the session. I mean, something so different that a bystander would definitely think it was a different tune altogether. That doesn't happen very often, but it can happen since so many tunes have different names, and are passed down through different traditions and regional styles. A modern type of confusion happens with recorded versions, where sometimes a tune is mis-labeled on the CD jacket or MP3 metadata, which can lead to some hilarity at sessions. People will know the tunes, but argue about the names attached.

But that sort of thing is rare, in my experience. People play together in sessions using slightly different settings all the time. As long as there isn't a serious harmonic clash, like one person is playing it as Dorian and the other as Mixolydian, it's not a problem. And even those differences get ironed out amiably -- "Hey, we do this in a minor mode!" "Oh, okay, no problem."

So what is "authentic "? Is it anything else besides how the local guys at the pub learned it?

"Authentic" is a slippery term. It can be applied to many things, and some of them are very contentious, like authenticity of sessions in the Irish diaspora and other parts of the world, vs. the home country and native players. I try to avoid that term as much as possible. For one thing, I'm sure my playing can't be described that way.


But as far as it goes, yeah... the "authentic session tunes" in any given area, are the ones being played most often at the local sessions. I'm still not crazy about that term, though.

Some here would enter that local session and stay, hoping to get swept up, learning it the way that pub plays it. When in Rome.Other players here, would leave it alone, and instead go find players who also acknowledge the moving target that is these tunes, and get swept up finding different versions every time they play it.

Well, the thing is.... if you use the second approach, you'll be in a group that's constantly scratching their collective heads and trying to find tunes in common. The reason a session gels around a series of common settings for their tunes, is so people can sit down, drink a beer, and have fun playing music together without thinking too hard about clashing versions. It's like the Borg Collective... you will be assimilated.

[Rob Gerety]

The thing about sessions, which I enjoy as a listener on occasion, is that everyone plays the melody all at the same time full steam ahead beginning to end. I have not been able to warm up to that approach to the music. I love the tunes though.

[michaelpthompson]

"Authentic" is a slippery term. It can be applied to many things, and some of them are very contentious, like authenticity of sessions in the Irish diaspora and other parts of the world, vs. the home country and native players. I try to avoid that term as much as possible. For one thing, I'm sure my playing can't be described that way.

Marvelously well said as always foldedpath. I especially agree with the idea of avoiding the term "authentic." I've heard people from Ireland who don't believe anyone not born on the Island could possibly play the music in an authentic manner. Others hold their version as authentic and reject all others.

There is certainly a broad arena outside of which the music is no longer played in the traditional manner. But it's a sliding scale that should be understood before judgment is made. For instance, I've heard Celtic rock bands play traditional tunes on electric guitars and amplified bagpipes. Certainly traditional in origin, but non-traditional in execution. Is this "authentic"? Maybe that's just the wrong question.

[Rob Gerety]

And there is modern contra dance music. For some reason I enjoy the whole traditional music experience (including ITM) more, as a player, a dancer and a listener, when there are arrangements and when creative back up is involved. This is why I have never joined in the local sessions as a player. Well one reason anyway - the other being that it would involve major commitment to get up to speed.

[chriss]

As I'm reading this I'm feeling increasingly grateful for several sessions in central OH, which afford a good deal more flexibility in HOW you learn this music, than some others described here. I've been at it (sessions) for about a yr+half and have memorized maybe 10-15 songs completely. I always bring a computer with ABCExplorer open to a file with ~600 tunes in it. I can play maybe ~150 of those mas-o-menos as session speed with the group. I try to learn 1-2 each week, first to the point of being able to play it at speed from the music, and then work towards really memorizing. Some sessions just start the songs, I try to guess the tune name or somebody tells me, I find it, and maybe join in part way thru. Other sessions will agree on the set before starting, and sometimes will pause while I tee them up before they start.

I'd love to completely memorize more, sooner. Even the ones I've supposedly memorized, I need to see the music to remember, often enuf. Work, kids, etc leaves X amount of time, and that's apparently not enuf for how my memorization works. Recently some friends have picked it up too and we'll sit around the kitchen table working on tunes from the ABC so we can "climb on the back of the train" at the session. Altho I understand/appreciate the rationale behind the ideal of "learn it by ear," my ear and my memorization being what they are, the strict enforcement of that would just cut me out of the session, which would be a real loss for me. Give me another 5-10 years, maybe I get there. ? Maybe.

[Bertram Henze]

I'd love to completely memorize more, sooner. Even the ones I've supposedly memorized, I need to see the music to remember, often enuf. Work, kids, etc leaves X amount of time, and that's apparently not enuf for how my memorization works. Recently some friends have picked it up too and we'll sit around the kitchen table working on tunes from the ABC so we can "climb on the back of the train" at the session. Altho I understand/appreciate the rationale behind the ideal of "learn it by ear," my ear and my memorization being what they are, the strict enforcement of that would just cut me out of the session, which would be a real loss for me. Give me another 5-10 years, maybe I get there. ? Maybe.

Those 5 - 10 years are a realistic guess, even if it was tongue-in-cheek. In trying to handle a multitude of tunes, we should not forget what historic lifestyle we are competing with here:

- a daily routine of working with your hands, nothing going on in your head,
- total absence of media distraction,
- the music you played the only entertainment

Juggling 100+ tunes in the air has not been much of a problem under such circumstances, I guess.
Today, in the age of breaking news, ringing phones and fast forgetting, it is a different challenge. To save these tunes from getting shredded in the daily turmoil inside our heads, we must stow them away in longterm memory, and that takes a while. But it can be learned - when I started playing tunes, it took me a month to get it session-worthy; now it's 2 or three days. The problem is that learning one tune can overwrite memory of another, older one. Thus, after the new tune runs smoothly, I'll have to check on the damage done to the rest of my collection.

I think it is this longterm thing that frightens many ITM newbies - there's no quick success, instead years of commitment. A relationship to ITM cannot be done as a one-night stand, it has to be a marriage. It is one application of that Irish saying: To know beauty you must live with it.

[chriss]

Those 5 - 10 years are a realistic guess, even if it was tongue-in-cheek. In trying to handle a multitude of tunes, we should not forget what historic lifestyle we are competing with here:

- a daily routine of working with your hands, nothing going on in your head,
- total absence of media distraction,
- the music you played the only entertainment

Juggling 100+ tunes in the air has not been much of a problem under such circumstances, I guess.
Today, in the age of breaking news, ringing phones and fast forgetting, it is a different challenge. To save these tunes from getting shredded in the daily turmoil inside our heads, we must stow them away in longterm memory, and that takes a while.[/I]

Yup you pretty much said it, and I wasn't kidding about 5-10 yrs. Age doesn't help either. I've never been good at instant recall of people's names, actors, sports players etc and I think there's a parallel weakness with tunes. I'll recognize a tune real fast as one I've worked on, or even one that I was able to play comfortably from memory at one point in the past (recent or distant). But recalling the next phrase of the tune ahead of hearing it, recalling/playing the B section, etc etc etc just don't work so good. And that's where I'll turn to the ABC file to make sure I've got it straight in my head before or as the tune gets to that next part.

The problem is that learning one tune can overwrite memory of another, older one. Thus, after the new tune runs smoothly, I'll have to check on the damage done to the rest of my collection. [/I]

haha +1 on that.

A relationship to ITM cannot be done as a one-night stand, it has to be a marriage. It is one application of that Irish saying: To know beauty you must live with it.

... ah well put. That- living with beauty- in a nutshell is the core reason to me for doing it. The longterm investment + build, being able to recall this more-or-less endless collection or stream of sweet tunes, having them (...eventually...) rattling around in my head as I go about working for a living etc ... this to me is why I look forward to each little slice of time I invest in it.

[bobby bill]

Because the part you are hearing, the notes, is not the most important component of that music.

If you remove the notes, you get silence. Silence is the most important part of the music? Way too Zen for me.

[Bertram Henze]

Age doesn't help either.

Yeah. in fact, I understand it should be the other way round: music is supposed to keep you young. So maybe age is helped.

[Bertram Henze]

If you remove the notes, you get silence.

The notes are what a midi player needs to do pitch and timing. However, a midi player's output will hardly make you want to dance. If you remove the notes, there is at least the stomping of feet and cries of joy, plus some doublestops, hammer-on/pulloffs, slides, ....

[bobby bill]

For instance, in this tradition, we play a tune, we sing a song. You don't even know the vocabulary, much less the issues.

Sounds like someone is being judged for not knowing the secret handshake. You are certainly entitled to the judgment, however, stating, "I don't judge them," (in a slightly different context) at the end of the post, seems a little off to me.

Personally, I never sing (your welcome), but I play songs all the time.

[bobby bill]

The notes are what a midi player needs to do pitch and timing.

The poster was talking about "the part you are hearing." I don't think we are hearing a midi player at a session. And if the "part you are hearing" is eliminated, why would anyone be dancing or stomping their feet?

I understand that there are a lot of intangibles that go with the music. And I absolutely love the clip of the session, above, with about sixty people playing at once, and the nonplayers bobbing around and otherwise grooving. I just don't understand the pretension.

[Jim Nollman]

so...session playing is not actually about anything called tune authenticity. Rather it's a musical expression of community. Everyone doing it — inevitably representing many skill levels — agrees to this system of unison playing. That also suggests, I suppose, that is has very little to do with everyone agreeing that some particular version is correct. But once they start a particular version, it properly gets played in unison, although with small eccentricities accepted. That makes sense to me.

As far as the limits of memory in learning tunes, I need to play them over and over and over in my living room. I even have an old short-neck Kay mandolin i use exclusively for that purpose. Then, when we meet as a band, we start the tune slow, which is about the speed I use in my living room, and slowly accelerate to dance speed. By playing it faster, i often find myself altering or skipping a few notes to keep it clean at speed. I don't learn song lyrics anywhere near as easily. However, I think i could, if i cared as much about song lyrics as i do about getting that latest song down properly.

Knocking MIDI is like knocking a hammer for not being a saw. Think of it as one more tool in the musical toolbox, used especially for recording, and film composing. I've never seen it used onstage for anything like what we're talking about here. If a contra dance was played by a good MIDI keyboard player, I don't see why the dancers would even notice.