"May I join the Irish music session?"

[allenhopkins]

I thought it funny; perhaps bodhran players might take offense...



Very few seisuns I attend feature The Unicorn.

[abuteague]

This one is good too.

[Randi Gormley]

"No. Go away."

So, so true!

[michaelpthompson]

I thought it funny; perhaps bodhran players might take offense...

I'm a bodhrán player, and not only do I not take offense, I agree wholeheartedly with the premise that you can't buy a bodhrán one day and play in a session the next. It's hilarious.

Very few seisuns I attend feature The Unicorn.

I've played The Unicorn at a few sessions, but ours are more liberal than many. I've even played it on a mandolin, so we've got some mandolin content.

[EdSherry]

An old friend, Cody Grundy, used to have a shop (Hobgoblin Music) in South San Francisco that specialized in Irish instruments. One day a fellow who said he was a percussionist came in wanting to buy a bodhran, and asking Cody to show him the basics of bodhran technique.

When the fellow said that he wanted to play it at a session that night, Cody refused to sell him a bodhran, telling him (in effect) that he needed to woodshed with it for quite a while before inflicting his playing on others.

Unfortunately, I've been to too many sessions where people seem to think "you folks look like you're having a great time; I have a bodhran; I should be allowed to join in because it's an 'open' session."

[Bertram Henze]

We always forgive naive newbies who jump into our session like lemmings from a cliff.
It's the obnoxious regulars who refuse to learn that get roasted. I remember one Bodhran player who can look back to 20+ years of bad playing and be proud of it - until he was told to stop playing with very explicit words.

If you really want to join a session undisturbed by talent, you should choose to sing, with the following advantages in your favor:

- no expenses for an instrument (specialize in strictly traditional a-capella in gaelic)

- singing is supposed to be a solo number anyway, therefore no problem with timing and pitch; the few musicians who try to accompany you at first will soon learn that they are no match for you

Now, someone would have to give me a clue - what is that "Unicorn" thing you're talking about - sure you don't mean this one?

[CelticDude]

Bertram,

I believe he means this:



It's cute, but only Irish because they have an Irish accent...

[JeffD]

Yea, they did the version everyone remembers. Shel Silverstein wrote it.

[CelticDude]

Yea, they did the version everyone remembers. Shel Silverstein wrote it.

Shel Silverstein?!? I didn't know that. Thanks.

[Bertram Henze]

Sounds like an Oirish version of "Old MacDonald Had a Farm"... (feeling relieved - I didn't miss out on this one)

[michaelpthompson]

Now you may be thinking of this one:

[steve V. johnson]

On our first trip to Ireland we were caught up in a local fleadh and welcomed (sort of ... mugged, really) into the locals' session in a pub. My wife, Min Gates, is a really fine bodhrán player and she was getting on brilliantly with the women in the session. In a momentary break between sets a big fella came over and asked Min to let him play her drum for one set and she said no, her reflex and default response, but she looked over at the local gals. One leaned over, and with all the others in concurrence, said in a clearly audible stage whisper, "Every sod's a bodhrán player after eleven, love. Never let him touch it at all."

[Nick Triesch]

I went to play at an Irish session a few times. When I got there they told me I could not use tab or read music to learn the melody. They also told me I could not be creative. That you had to play the song note for note the way it was written. I could play the mandolin just as well as the leader but he was very rude as was his helper. There are two kinds of acoustic Irish music... session and Irish bar music. I have heard both and I will take the fun music with a pint anytime! Nick

[liestman]

I disagree that you cannot use tab or sheet music to LEARN a tune (using it in a session is a different matter). I also disagree that you cannot be creative. Not as creative as in a jazz jam - you still need to be actually playing the tune, but you have lots of liberty (and should exercise it) with how you ornament the tune, while staying within the generally accepted limits of the genre. If you do that, it IS fun music and may well involve a pint!

[foldedpath]

Agreeing with John here; there are few Irish trad sessions aside from beginner-level ones, that would allow or encourage sheet music *at* the session. Learning tunes is best done at home, at least the kind of learning that involves sheet music.

Regarding improvisation, at the most basic level, you can decide where and how to articulate ("ornament") individual notes. Ornamentation doesn't change the actual notes in the tune, and the mechanics of articulation vary among instruments. Fiddles and flutes don't articulate notes the same way as tenor banjos or mandolins, and different people will throw ornaments at different times. But it all works because the same core notes are being played together.

At a deeper level, some players like to slightly alter a phrase here in there, staying well within the mode of the tune, and never doing it in a way that clashes with the other players. This is one of those "learn the rules before you try to break them" things. And it's still very subtle. You might not even hear another player doing it in the mix of other instruments. It's taken me a couple of years to get to the point where I can throw in some ornaments here and there, but I'm still far from being able to think fast enough, and know the tunes well enough, to do this other type of variation within a tune. Especially after the second pint!

Anyway, it's fine to prefer other styles of music, like the Clancy Brothers' type of Irish drinking songs and ballads. Session playing isn't for everyone. And some people mistake the attempt to preserve traditional playing styles as elitism or arbitrary exclusion. I think it's helpful to at least try to understand how a genre works, even if you don't like it that much. Then you can gripe about it from an informed perspective.


Speaking of which (this was posted here before, but it fits the current theme):

[michaelpthompson]

I went to play at an Irish session a few times. When I got there they told me I could not use tab or read music to learn the melody. They also told me I could not be creative. That you had to play the song note for note the way it was written. I could play the mandolin just as well as the leader but he was very rude as was his helper. There are two kinds of acoustic Irish music... session and Irish bar music. I have heard both and I will take the fun music with a pint anytime! Nick

One of the things that happens with sessions in America, is that some of the people begin to think the music is set in stone. I've been told that sessions in Ireland are much more open to innovation that some of the ones you find in the U.S.

Having said that, telling you not to use tab or sheet music, but also not to be creative, is contradictory. You cannot play most Irish TRAD tunes "note for note the way it was written" because originally, it was not written. TRAD music was customarily passed along aurally. You learned it by listening, then playing along, and finally, leading out. Each session tends to develop its own ways of playing the tunes because it's not a written tradition. There was no Mozart or Beethoven writing the notes for the first players.

The tradition of not allowing tabs or sheet music at sessions is actually an attempt to preserve this traditional way of passing along the music. Purists believe that being limited by the notes on a page prohibits a person from playing the traditional folk music properly. Some traditional timing and ornamentation cannot be adequately transmitted or learned from tabs or sheet music. That's not to say it's not a good way of learning the basics of the tune before you come to the session, but you may find yourself at odds with the other musicians (as in out of step with them) if you try to play from tabs or sheet music during the session itself.

Irish session music has its own traditions, which are not the same as bluegrass or old-time jam sessions. You don't solo or take breaks in an Irish session. Everyone plays the same basic tune, or augments it with rhythm. You try to improvise and you screw that up. If that's what you meant by "be creative" then they were right to tell you not to do it.

You can certainly get creative with this music, but not in the same way as you may have experienced in other sessions. First, you need the foundation of knowing the tune; then you can work on ornamentation and such. It's kind of like paying your dues to play the blues. You don't just wander into a blues jam and wander all over the melody being "creative" because that clashes with what the other players are doing and with the tradition.

It's quite possible to have a session of "fun music with a pint" if you know the tradition and how to blend with it. The leaders may have seemed rude, and indeed, might have BEEN rude for all I know, but that comes from their exasperation with clueless people wandering into a session and thinking they can just plink along without knowing the music. Don't know if you're in that category or not, but there are plenty of them out there and they drive session people crazy.

I love session music and playing in sessions, but having said that, I play a lot more "Irish bar music" because I'm better at it. I've also been places where the two were successfully fused. I'm not sure you can limit acoustic Irish music to only two kinds, but holding forth on some pub songs in a bar is certainly a different experience than a TRAD session.

BTW, we went round and round this same subject in another thread, which might be really enlightening for you.

[foldedpath]

One of the things that happens with sessions in America, is that some of the people begin to think the music is set in stone. I've been told that sessions in Ireland are much more open to innovation that some of the ones you find in the U.S.

Sure, and that's because the ratio of people in Ireland who understand the music is so much higher, not to mention being state-supported by outfits like Comhaltas to encourage and preserve the tradition. They can afford to be relaxed. They don't need the barbed wire and cattle prods that some sessions in the USA need, to keep from being overwhelmed by clueless OldTime or folk music players who want to "join in the fun" without trying to learn what the music is all about.

There's a related thread right now on thesession.org, about how sessions in Ireland are often more relaxed about the occasional pop song or other departures from tradition:

http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/27644

[allenhopkins]

...they told me I could not use tab or read music to learn the melody. They also told me I could not be creative. That you had to play the song note for note the way it was written...

OK, confused here. If no one was using tablature or sheet music at the seisun (which is universally my experience at seisuns), how can you "play the song note for note the way it was written," if it wasn't written at all?

As a couple posters have said, tab and sheet music is a good way to learn the basic melody, at home before going to the seisun. You then show up with the tune in your head, and listen to the way it's played by that particular group, which may differ slightly or significantly from the way you've learned it. Knowing the basic "structure" of the tune enables you to adapt your playing to fit in with the others.

Mandolin is an excellent instrument to learn tunes on at a seisun, because it can switch from melody to rhythm in a way that a fiddle, flute, or guitar can't do as well. You can play melody on the tunes whose melodies you know; you can play rhythm behind the tunes whose melodies you don't know, if you can figure out the chords "on the fly." As you hear the tunes more times, you find yourself picking up the melody.

I'm a bit of a "maverick" at some seisuns, 'cause I like to put in harmonies here and there, especially if I'm playing octave mandolin or mandola; I'll add bass runs or mid-range harmonies, sometimes even counter-melodies, but I try to keep the volume modest and not to "detract" from the melody. So far I've avoided expulsion, and seldom get the "fisheye" from seisun leaders.

One of the local seisuns has a "learners' hour" before the regular seisun begins, and even a 30-minute allotment for singers, before the hard-core types get started. Probably a really good idea. Also, if you have a fiddle club in your area, they often have segment of their meetings blocked off for tune learning, with slower speeds and the use of sheet music and/or tab, and they also often play a variety of Celtic tunes -- usually just the basic ones, but it's a way to get started.

Good luck; if none of these ideas work, one can always take up bodhran...

[michaelpthompson]

An interesting thread indeed foldedpath. Some good points, though in true session.org tradition, they quickly get buried under a barrage of sniping insults. I do think we've discussed the issue in a more thoughtful and substantive manner.

I often participate in what would be better described as a song circle than a session. It's called "Celtic Jam" and we tend to play a lot of ITM tunes, but we don't mind straying out of that genre on occasion. It's a blast, but I tell people ahead of time that it's not a traditional session. We often play from the Fiddler's Fake Book or even pass around sheet music.

I love variety in my music, including TRAD, which does have some pretty strict rules, and for good reason. But right now, I'm listening to Dropkick Murphys.

[foldedpath]

An interesting thread indeed foldedpath. Some good points, though in true session.org tradition, they quickly get buried under a barrage of sniping insults. I do think we've discussed the issue in a more thoughtful and substantive manner.

Oh yeah, it's a real snake pit over there.

On the other hand, it's a tremendous source of information from the more knowledgeable posters. It just takes time to figure out who to pay attention to, and who to ignore among the regulars. The tune database is great, especially the comments tab for background info and alternate versions. It's the first place I go when researching a new tune that perks up my ears.

I love variety in my music, including TRAD, which does have some pretty strict rules, and for good reason. But right now, I'm listening to Dropkick Murphys.

Cool. The music I listen to is all over the place too. I'm lucky that my S.O. plays this fiddle, and when playing at home we very often get into some weird stuff that wouldn't fly at a session. There's a time and place for everything!

[allenhopkins]

Another quick point about seisuns in which I've participated: sometimes one of the melody players will launch into a tune that no one else knows. Everyone will just sit and listen, while he/she plays it through (usually three times), making no attempt to join in -- well, perhaps a rhythm player will attempt some quiet back-up. When the tune's over, there'll be a lot of "what tune is that, where'd you get it, sounds a bit like (fill in the other tune here), makes me think of (this tune -- player launches into the other tune)," etc. No one's embarrassed to not know the tune, and the player doesn't feel embarrassed that he/she brought the general seisun to a halt by playing an unfamiliar piece.

Now, if someone started a tune that was "out of bounds" from what was generally being played -- say, Orange Blossom Special -- there'd be a general uncomfortable feeling, fidgeting and departures to the bar for a refill. But there's no shame attached, at least in my experience, to either not knowing a tune, or knowing a tune no one else knows. If a person showed up at a seisun and played tune after tune that no one else could play, that person might quickly overstay his/her welcome, but exceptions to universal participation are more generally tolerated, in my experience, that the common picture of a rigidly controlled "group mind" seisun.

[Bertram Henze]

sometimes one of the melody players will launch into a tune that no one else knows. Everyone will just sit and listen, while he/she plays it through (usually three times), making no attempt to join in -- well, perhaps a rhythm player will attempt some quiet back-up. When the tune's over, there'll be a lot of "what tune is that

Reflects my experience, but it only works out if that single player is good enough to raise curiosity and the tune contains enough reusable elements from other tunes that players recognize (and make them wonder all the time where they've heard it before). I was successful with Mulqueen's once, the others even had me play it slowly a few times over so they could learn it. There are other tunes that make the rest just roll their eyes ("he's playing the crazy one again") - Grand Marais is one of those. But that's tradition at work.

It should be the exception from the rule, though. There's nothing like a small group of players who only do the exotic tunes they've practised among themselves to destroy a session.

[Nick Triesch]

Here in San Diego I was invited to play in a session and the leaders told us that no sheet music was allowed. I'm not kidding. They told us you must play the song only after hearing it played by other players. Note for note. No tab! No notes! No music. I kid you not! I have never been to a group of folks so rude in my life! I would rather go to the dentist and have a root canal. Even if I found a sesson that let me read tab or music I would never do it again. Just a strange stuck up bunch of folks playing very un interesting music. No one would laugh, no one would talk, just dead on serious. Even if you go to a pub that plays the music they have a list of rules you must read before you go and listen. That is no problem, I will go listen to the happy drunken bar tunes! Nick

[Jill McAuley]

Here in San Diego I was invited to play in a session and the leaders told us that no sheet music was allowed. I'm not kidding. They told us you must play the song only after hearing it played by other players. Note for note. No tab! No notes! No music. I kid you not! I have never been to a group of folks so rude in my life! I would rather go to the dentist and have a root canal. Even if I found a sesson that let me read tab or music I would never do it again. Just a strange stuck up bunch of folks playing very un interesting music. No one would laugh, no one would talk, just dead on serious. Even if you go to a pub that plays the music they have a list of rules you must read before you go and listen. That is no problem, I will go listen to the happy drunken bar tunes! Nick

Well Nick, if you're happy to generalize about ALL sessions being made up of "strange stuck up folks playing uninteresting music.." then the session world and yourself are better off without each other.

If I was going to a session I'd never been to before I wouldn't even bring an instrument - I'd bring a recording device and ask if it was ok to record the tunes that were unfamiliar to me, then afterwards I'd go home and learn the tunes. Pretty straightforward really.

Cheers,
Jill

[walt33]

I went once with a friend to a beginner's session in Northampton, Mass., where they used tab and notation. Everybody did. As a beginner I kind of liked it, because even though I don't read, I could see the chord changes and keep track of where we were. Eventually my friend stopped going, because they relied on, no needed, the paper in front of them and never seemed to internalize the tunes. These days I prefer to woodshed at home with slow-down software and learn by ear. But then I seem to play everything at half speed! ;-)