Never buy stringed instruments. Incl: An actual eBay Response.

[Bernie Daniel]

"(item #180655366862)" . . . a Kentucky KM-630 for $291.50 seems like a pretty good deal, even with a buzz.

Hummmmmmmmmmmm, this would be true.........

[Brent Hutto]

Well if it has a bent neck, that's $291.50 down the tubes for not much of nothing. If it's actually playable and just needs a setup that's darned near a steal. You roll the dice and you take your chance...

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

Let me add, as an opinion from far left field, that the OP has 6 posts and opens a "conflict thread".

Actually it's the second thread on ebay purchase that had not gone the way the OP had hoped. But regardless, I'd really like to give the OP the benefit of the doubt. In the ebay response cited, the OP mentioned additional damage to the instrument - what was it. Also, according to the ad, the seller offered a 7 day money back return policy, with no specific condition stated. When I read that I take it to mean that within 7 days, I can opt to send the mandolin back to the seller and expect a full refund, no matter what issue there is - even if I simply don't like the color. If the seller balked at that, then the seller should have put a condition on the return policy.

I once bought a Kentucky 140 on eBay that was listed as almost 'new' that was recently purchased from a local music store. When I received it I found out that it was actually an older model that was either purchased a while back, or it was a NOS that the local music store sold to the seller. Regardless, as the seller offered a 3 day money back return policy, I decided to take him up on it. When he balked, I opened a case with eBay, and got all my money back before I even had a chance to mail the mandolin back.

Is buying on eBay risky? Absolutely. Is the protection offered by ebay and paypal risk proof? No at all, whether you're seller or buyer. It's important for each and everyone of us to understand the level of risk we are taking when shopping on eBay. I don't think it's possible to make a general, over-reaching conclusion on whether eBay is entirely good, or entirely bad.

But most of all, I dislike thread like this one where the OP never bother to come back and offer some additional information and help clarify some of the questions we have. I know he or she is not obligated to, and can do whatever he or she pleases once the post is up. But it just feels like an utter waster of time.

[David Newton]

Maybe he is busy playing his instrument.
I should do that...

[Bernie Daniel]

Actually it's the second thread on ebay purchase that had not gone the way the OP had hoped. But regardless, I'd really like to give the OP the benefit of the doubt.....most of all, I dislike thread like this one where the OP never bother to come back and offer some additional information and help clarify some of the questions we have. I know he or she is not obligated to, and can do whatever he or she pleases once the post is up. But it just feels like an utter waster of time.

Thanks for doing the detective work and pointing that out. I think you are very kind to give the OP this much benefit of the doubt. Considering this rather odd history I might be inclined not to bother responding the next time this individual comes in with a complaint. OTHO, I suppose it is possible that he did not want any advice only to make others aware of the eBay issue.

[Stephen Perry]

EBay's protections have always seemed quite illusory to me. I can't recall ever operating through eBay in conflict resolution. I have operated through PayPal by someone's choice. It didn't turn out to their satisfaction. It would have had they not gone through PayPal.

EBay is just a venue. There are terms to the contract. Counting on them to be a court, too, is a bit of a stretch!

[SimpleAsCouldBe]

To update on some of the questions here:
* This is the 2nd bad instrument I've bought on eBay. The first one I bought I had checked by an independent luthier. The return went well and the seller handled it ethically. This post is about the 2nd return, which has not worked well.
* The instrument arrived with strings that were completely black. (tarnish from sitting? I don't know, never seen it before). I didn't think twice about restringing it. I had a new set of j74s and restrung it immediately.
* I have only 6 posts because I am new to this forum just like I'm new to the mandolin. Because I'm new to the mandolin, I've been trying to buy my first "nice" one.
* The email posted at the top is the result of an appeal. There is no further option for me to escalate or appeal as far as I can find. My only recourse is to warn others away and cancel my eBay activities.
* My purpose is, as stated, to warn others. If a community of string instrument players can agree that restringing is "maintenance" and not an "alteration" maybe this would change ebay's policy, but my appeal case is already closed so I have nothing to gain there.

[Jill McAuley]

Maybe this is a lesson in the benefits of buying from reliable sources such as the variety of sponsers here at the cafe! Certainly as someone new to the instrument I think you're really taking a punt into the dark buying a mandolin on ebay. I recently bought a tenor banjo on ebay, and am really pleased with it, but I've been playing banjo for a few years and have read up on all the things to look out for in vintage banjos, so felt pretty informed going into it. However, back in '07, completely green to the tenor banjo world, I doubt I would've been able to make the same kind of judgment calls and quite likely would've ended up with a banjo that was a basketcase!

Cheers,
Jill

[CES]

OP--

My first mandolin purchase was an ebay purchase as well...Kentucky 675-S, new B stock but in "perfect structural condition." Seller had a 100% return policy. The thing came with a chipped nut and a pretty impressive neck bow. I contacted the seller, stated that I was unsatisfied with the condition of the mandolin, and wished to exercise his return policy. I got a couple of return emails, sent a couple more myself (even stating that I would leave positive feedback if he honored the return policy), and basically got an email stating that he wasn't taking it back because I had buyer's remorse. He implied that negative feedback would hurt me more than him (this was my second or third ebay purchase, he had hundreds of transactions), etc. Then, poof, he disappeared. The email became nonfunctional, contact numbers changed, no more listings under his business name, etc...and he had 100% positive feedback. I didn't have the time or resources to pursue it further at the time.

The nut turned out not to be a real issue, though I can't play anything lighter than J-75s without the A strings buzzing when played open, but when the fretboard began separating from the neck with truss rod adjustment (by a luthier, not me), I was even more furious. I eventually got the FB reglued and neck adjusted to playability (though not comfortable playability), had some fret work done, and replaced the bridge. But, when all was said and done I'd spent as much on repairs as I had on the mandolin initially. Total cost equalled or surpassed what I could have gotten new from a reputable dealer.

I tell you all that to tell you this: Buy your first decent mandolin from a reputable store that does a good set-up. Cafe sponsors are not perfect, but generally have excellent reps and will work with you to resolve issues as Stephen alluded to above. The initial cost may be a little more, but it's well worth it to get a playable, functional mandolin that you can play right out of the box. The deal may not seem as impressive up front, but this approach eliminates much of your risk.

Sorry for your troubles. My experience cured me from ever buying instruments through that forum again. I've bought a couple of other things since then (a nice hybrid golf club, some harder to find Christmas gifts, etc) without any problems, but bought them all from actual stores that just happened to sell on Ebay, too.

[Brent Hutto]

The only musical instrument I'd buy off eBay (from an individual seller, mind you, not an established real-world merchant) is one that was so cheap I could literally throw it in the trash if it turned out to be...well, trash. Like under a hundred bucks. Well under a hundred. There's just so much that can be wrong but not show up in photos or a blah-blah-blah sales pitch. And with the kind of inexpensive instruments you might pick up on eBay it's a fine line between "spend a few dollars repairing" and "not worth what it would cost to prepare".

[rgray]

....,* The email posted at the top is the result of an appeal. There is no further option for me to escalate or appeal as far as I can find. My only recourse is to warn others away and cancel my eBay activities.
* My purpose is, as stated, to warn others. If a community of string instrument players can agree that restringing is "maintenance" and not an "alteration" maybe this would change ebay's policy, but my appeal case is already closed so I have nothing to gain there.

Thanks for the update. Even though I don't know all of the sale details, I can certainly understand your frustration with the underlying interpretation by eBay regarding the "maintenance" vs. "alteration" issue. I doubt eBay would give you the time of day now that they have ruled on your case but I wonder how the issue can continue to be pressed, especially by third parties. It may just be that potential buyers need to understand the eBay/PayPal rules regarding just when an item is not as advertised and maybe get the seller to commit in writing that standard restringing (even tuning) will not be used as grounds to reject returns. But the entire situation can become so complicated dealing with arbitrators that will probably know nothing about stringed instruments, that it may just be best to follow other advice and avoid eBay.

[allenhopkins]

The only musical instrument I'd buy off eBay...is one that was so cheap I could literally throw it in the trash if it turned out to be...well, trash. Like under a hundred bucks. Well under a hundred...

Disagree, to some extent. What I might buy (and have bought) on eBay, are instruments (a) that weren't available locally, nor likely to be, because I buy locally whenever possible; (b) that were available at a price that meant, if I did have to make some repairs, they were still under general market price. I got a Howe-Orme mandolinetto for about $150, from a seller who stated honestly that he considered it a "wall hanger" because it needed a serious neck re-set. I was willing to pay for the re-set, even though it more than doubled the cost of the mandolin, because repaired it was worth more than I'd put into it, and you don't find H-O mandolinettos that often. I got a Merrill aluminum-bowl mandolin for around $200, because it was an oddity that few people would find attractive; it came completely playable (and I'm playing it at historical events now), but I would have been OK with putting some repair money into it.

You do need to know something about mandolins to go on eBay, where sellers are distant and anonymous (often), instruments can't be test-played before money changes hands, and recourse (as this thread proves) can be problematic. I don't buy often, and so far I've been lucky, but I wouldn't agree with blanket avoidance of the auction site. There's no other place where you can obtain such a wide variety of instruments, from so many different parts of the world. Just another resource to be used wisely and cautiously.

[Brent Hutto]

Allen,

True. I was thinking in terms of non-obscure, modern instruments.

Obviously if you're a collector in the "long tail" looking for hard to find or one of a kind items eBay is a tool in your kit for tracking them down. Especially if you're looking for a rebuild or restoration starting point rather than a near-ready-to-play mandolin.

But someone looking for a Kentucky or Gibson to buy and play, options abound. Of them, eBay would be one of the least desirable in my estimation. With the exception of well established retailers who also have an eBay listing.

[CES]

And with the kind of inexpensive instruments you might pick up on eBay it's a fine line between "spend a few dollars repairing" and "not worth what it would cost to prepare".

My experience completely. It never ceases to amaze me how many good transactions people have had, though. Not always great deals, though sometimes so, but really quality instruments that came as advertised. I also know one lady who's an "ebay professional" who's actually flipped (bought and immediately sold, not actually physically flipped) a helicopter on there before...now, that's impressive...

[Brent Hutto]

The stuff I'd be shopping for never goes for an attractive price, anyway. I mean the last Jet Ranger I was buying would have been half a million overpriced on eBay. Good thing I found it in the Classifieds of the Bell Helicopter Cafe!

But seriously, I remember a few months back I was looking for a preferably used microphone as part an entry-level recording setup at home. I ended up getting a very affordable pair of mics off the Classifieds but had hoped to score a used Shure maybe a level above those on eBay. The auction prices all ended up right about equal to the usual Buy-It-Now prices which were in turn a few percentages points at best under what you could get them for at B&H or J&R any day of the week. Why mess about with some possibly dodgy eBay-er to save 20 bucks?

Now if I had been looking for a classic ribbon mic of some highly specific and uncommon type it would have eventually churned up on the 'Bay. But for anything you can buy brand-new from a big discount house it generally works out easier and just about as cheap to do so. Unless you're willing to roll the dice on an item with something wrong that runs off all the other buyers but you don't mind.

[Nonprophet]

To update on some of the questions here:
* This is the 2nd bad instrument I've bought on eBay. The first one I bought I had checked by an independent luthier. The return went well and the seller handled it ethically. This post is about the 2nd return, which has not worked well.
* The instrument arrived with strings that were completely black. (tarnish from sitting? I don't know, never seen it before). I didn't think twice about restringing it. I had a new set of j74s and restrung it immediately.
* I have only 6 posts because I am new to this forum just like I'm new to the mandolin. Because I'm new to the mandolin, I've been trying to buy my first "nice" one.
* The email posted at the top is the result of an appeal. There is no further option for me to escalate or appeal as far as I can find. My only recourse is to warn others away and cancel my eBay activities.
* My purpose is, as stated, to warn others. If a community of string instrument players can agree that restringing is "maintenance" and not an "alteration" maybe this would change ebay's policy, but my appeal case is already closed so I have nothing to gain there.

Couple of points:

Did the ebay photos show the black strings?

Did you pay for it with a credit card (either directly or through Paypal)? If you did pay with a credit card, you can file a claim with your credit card company--they tend to be a lot more balanced towards their customers IMHO and especially if the photos didn't show black strings but that's how it arrived, then I think you'd have a good case for a charge-back.....

FWIW, ALWAYS pay for eBay items with a credit card!! Paypal would love for you to take the funds out of your bank account because once they do you have little to no recourse if you have a problem. If you pay with a credit card however, you have a MUCH better chance of getting your money back.

Sorry that this has happened to you and I hope you can find a way to resolve it!


NP

[CES]

The stuff I'd be shopping for never goes for an attractive price, anyway. I mean the last Jet Ranger I was buying would have been half a million overpriced on eBay. Good thing I found it in the Classifieds of the Bell Helicopter Cafe!

[Bernie Daniel]

To update on some of the questions here:
* This is the 2nd bad instrument I've bought on eBay. The first one I bought I had checked by an independent luthier. The return went well and the seller handled it ethically. This post is about the 2nd return, which has not worked well.
* The instrument arrived with strings that were completely black. (tarnish from sitting? I don't know, never seen it before). I didn't think twice about restringing it. I had a new set of j74s and restrung it immediately.
* I have only 6 posts because I am new to this forum just like I'm new to the mandolin. Because I'm new to the mandolin, I've been trying to buy my first "nice" one.
* The email posted at the top is the result of an appeal. There is no further option for me to escalate or appeal as far as I can find. My only recourse is to warn others away and cancel my eBay activities.
* My purpose is, as stated, to warn others. If a community of string instrument players can agree that restringing is "maintenance" and not an "alteration" maybe this would change ebay's policy, but my appeal case is already closed so I have nothing to gain there.

Thanks for the clairifications. Sorry you are having such bad luck. What is wrong with the mandolin anyway and is it repairable?

[Stephen Perry]

To update on some of the questions here:

* The email posted at the top is the result of an appeal. There is no further option for me to escalate or appeal as far as I can find. My only recourse is to warn others away and cancel my eBay activities.
* My purpose is, as stated, to warn others. If a community of string instrument players can agree that restringing is "maintenance" and not an "alteration" maybe this would change ebay's policy, but my appeal case is already closed so I have nothing to gain there.

That is simply not true. The only eBay option is finished, but eBay's protections are illusory at worst, and minimal otherwise. PayPal offers some relief.

You could (and in the absence of all that eBay puffery probably would think about):

1. Chargeback on your charge card
2. Legal system
3. If a dealer, state AG office or dept of consumer affairs.

Buying something "on eBay" is like buying something from a catalog or from a store or anything else. EBay is just a venue with lots of pretty words and packaging. EBay and the seller contract, not eBay and you. Your contract is with the seller. Enforce that one.

[TheMandoShop]

What was the seller's response to the complaint?

[RichM]

While I agree with an awful lot of what's be written here, I will observe this: I have made probably 500 ebay transactions over the years, many of them for musical instruments. Out of 500, perhaps 5 of them have gone squirrely and all of those have been resolved to my satisfaction, either through ebay resolutions or my credit card company.

So while I agree with virtually all of the inherent risks listed by other posters, I have to say that a 1% anxiety rate isn't too bad and a 0% loss rate is pretty good, even with the annoyance figured in. I fully understand that others haven't had my good fortune, so I'm not discounting their bad experiences. As agreed to earlier, ebay is risky.

The best advice? Know what you're buying-- if you're out of your comfort zone, you're taking on more risk than may be worth it. Understand your seller's return policy. Communicate with the seller and get a sense of who they are. Understand ebay's policies and your likely rights under them. Always use a credit card, because it provides more protection.

I'm not here to advocate for ebay. But as a collector of many things, it's provided me with the world's coolest flea market. While I have little respect for the corporate culture (try calling their customer service line-- YIKES!), they've provided a great venue where honest buyers and sellers can find each other.

[fatt-dad]

consider the loss tuition. it's better for your long-term health.

f-d