Freshwater Instruments close down

[Ivan Kelsall]

From cedartower - "Dave Freshwater crook or incompetent businessman ?". Without a FULL understanding of DF's current plight,it's very hard indeed to attribute either appelation to the man.Certainly in your case,there's a definte incompetence,but was his real intention to deceive ? - we don't know. We can however extrapolate your situation,& say that if this happened to other people,then his reputation would have suffered & he'd have lost business. Maybe our 'Cafe colleague David Gordon ( or others of the Scottish persuasion) would kindly keep an eye (ear) open for further information in the Scottish news. I have to say that unless DF is found to be an out & out crook,then he has my deepest sympathy,incompetence or not,some of us are born that way,we can't help it !. That doesn't mean that i'm not also sympathetic with those who've had fruitless dealings with him. As i said in my first post - it's bad news all round,but only by knowing the true story will we have any understanding of what's happened. Mere 'supposition' isn't ever a good thing,
Ivan

[Crieftan]

Folks

The best source of info about banruptcy (sequestration) in Scotland is the Accountant in Bankruptcy (see my link in a previous post above)

If someone is bankrupt, as Freshwater states in his email, his whole affairs will fall under the control of a trustee (a professional person) and this person will be able to give you details of how to make a claim against his estate

DF will no longer have a say in anything relating to his business - he answers to his trustee. He like most bankrupts he should be more than happy to tell you who this person is as it will stop folk contacting him for answers. If not then that would raise my suspicions as to the veracity of his status.

For his sake I hope he is telling the truth about being bankrupt. If not it may be verging on a matter for the police to investigate.

[Stephen Perry]

Crieftan makes a very important point. Those who believe DF owes instrument or refund either need to, must, should go through the proper channels or simply let whatever they've put in disappear, and ideally never bring the matter up again. Should the Accountant in Bankruptcy not have records on this matter, then a different path for recourse would be possibly worth pursuing.

In matters here in the US, I have never found that anyone telling me they were bankrupt as an avenue out of difficulties actually showed up in the legal system as having filed. We would always check immediately to avoid spinning our wheels.

Again, following the legal system's rules are essential in resolving such matters. My personal tendency is to work on legal matters behind the scenes.

Good luck, all.

[Dagger Gordon]

Quote "Maybe our 'Cafe colleague David Gordon ( or others of the Scottish persuasion) would kindly keep an eye (ear) open for further information in the Scottish news."



As I said, Ivan, I don't know the man at all and the only place I have heard about this is here.

I have seen some of his instruments over the years, but I have made it my policy not to comment directly on a public forum about the work of individual makers as what I am looking for in an instrument may not be the same as other people and perhaps any unfavourable comments from me might unfairly put potential customers off, which I wouldn't want to do.

I do, of course, have my own views on his instruments and I am aware that some people seem to be very unhappy both with their dealings with him and with his actual instruments (before the business closed). I think it is fair to note though that he does also seem to have had a number of satisfied customers judging from comments made on the Cafe.

But I don't have any more information really. I also don't wish to be seen as 'kicking a man when he's down' when I really have no involvement in this sorry saga.

[Stephen Perry]

Pardon me for butting in again, but I wish to reinforce Dagger's points and my own.

First, nobody in Scotland is in any better position than anyone else to check with the cognizant authorities. It's not really fair to ask others to follow up.

Second, the affected parties have a duty to act if they wish a resolution other than the default. That action needs to be in the appropriate venue. This is not the appropriate venue, especially now that the business seems closed.

Finally, the "facts" in this matter are hardly proven, and they cannot be proven here. This discussion reads more like gossip than a fact-based inquiry.

Some here have been directing the curious intermeddlers and affected parties to appropriate actions and venues, while suggesting methods of avoiding such problems in the future. I urge the affected to quietly pursue the real process. Gossip generally does nothing but muddy the waters and usually ends in hurt feelings all around.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming. Perhaps it will include real facts about the situation with Freshwater. It certainly doesn't need to include speculation or gossip, in my assessment.

[Daithio]

Is there anyone in the UK who would be interested in checking the register of insolvencies? It requires a registration, and while the form accepts a long list of countries, it does not recognize American ZIP codes as postal codes. The notion that liquidation happens to limited companies makes me wonder if his email is truthful. Nowhere on his website (I checked cached versions) or on my order receipt was he identified as a limited company. If we can know that his business has failed then at least we know something.

This is the link: http://roi.aib.gov.uk/roi/

Thanks

[ccravens]

Gossip generally does nothing but muddy the waters and usually ends in hurt feelings all around.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming. Perhaps it will include real facts about the situation with Freshwater. It certainly doesn't need to include speculation or gossip, in my assessment.

While your idea about the situation is certainly accurate, and I pretty much agree with all you said, don't underestimate the power off letting off some frustration that this forum provides for those who have lost money and/or instruments, or both. After what they've been through, I have no problem with allowing them at least this measure of satisfaction (especially since they may never get anything else!) in blowing off some steam. As long as libelous statements are kept out, I have no problem with it. In what other forum could they discuss shared problems with a specific luthier/businessperson? This forum serves an important function in that respect.

I also appreciate the fact that this may serve as a warning to others who already ordered instruments and are just now finding out info on the situation, and/or finding out for the first time that there are others in the same boat. Also for those who have thought about, or might think about an instrument purchase from this individual in the future, should such a situation ever arise. I haven't seen anything yet here that rises to the level of libel. One man's "gossip" is another man's much needed information or warning.

[Marc Berman]

Is there anyone in the UK who would be interested in checking the register of insolvencies? It requires a registration, and while the form accepts a long list of countries, it does not recognize American ZIP codes as postal codes. The notion that liquidation happens to limited companies makes me wonder if his email is truthful. Nowhere on his website (I checked cached versions) or on my order receipt was he identified as a limited company. If we can know that his business has failed then at least we know something.

This is the link: http://roi.aib.gov.uk/roi/

Thanks

You can register by just leaving out the postal code, it's not required. I couldn't find any listing for Dave Freshwater or Freshwater Instruments.

[Stephen Perry]

While your idea about the situation is certainly accurate, and I pretty much agree with all you said, don't underestimate the power off letting off some frustration that this forum provides for those who have lost money and/or instruments, or both. After what they've been through, I have no problem with allowing them at least this measure of satisfaction (especially since they may never get anything else!) in blowing off some steam. As long as libelous statements are kept out, I have no problem with it. In what other forum could they discuss shared problems with a specific luthier/businessperson? This forum serves an important function in that respect.

I also appreciate the fact that this may serve as a warning to others who already ordered instruments and are just now finding out info on the situation, and/or finding out for the first time that there are others in the same boat. Also for those who have thought about, or might think about an instrument purchase from this individual in the future, should such a situation ever arise. I haven't seen anything yet here that rises to the level of libel. One man's "gossip" is another man's much needed information or warning.

I don't mind facts.

We used to check fora, facebook, everywhere when assessing an opponent. Very interesting things came up, most useful for us in assessing and otherwise dealing with the opposition. Just something well worth keeping in mind.

[Daithio]

Marc,

Thanks--I need to pay attention to asterisks. I couldn't find anything either, under Freshwater or "Fretted Folk Musical Instruments," which is the name on my order receipt. I don't know where else to look from this distance. If Freshwater has indeed failed then so be it, but I'd like to be assured that he actually has.

David

[Ivan Kelsall]

My sincere apologies to David Gordon if he was thinking that i was asking him specifically to 'report back' on this issue - i wasn't. It's only the fact that sometimes,snippets of 'local news' appear on TV or in newspapers. The demise of the 'Sound Control' music stores hit the local news in Manchester,both on TV & in the newspaper. I was thinking that if such a story were to appear on Scottish TV or in a local Scottish newspaper,it might offer some factual information,
Ivan

[Dagger Gordon]

No problem.

But as yet I have only heard about it here.

Dagger

[theCOOP]

duh.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Hi David - The probability is that it won't make the news in the same way that the closing of the "Sound Control" chain of stores did.
Mr.Freshwater was a 'lone builder',whereas SC employed 100's of people in their stores,
Ivan

[Noahs Warning]

I've spent some time on the site listing Scottish Insolvencies (mentioned above), using different names for the business, address and even searching over the span of dates that I imagine would include his own insolvency: nothing. The register, when I checked was up to date for 24th June, I supose it possible that the registration has yet to be included in the database.

[Daithio]

I notice in the listings for personal bankruptcies that there is a lag time between filing and posting. The company listings don't offer a date search, but I'd think the same would be true. I don't know how to find out any other way. It would give me some peace of mind to know I lost the money through failure and not fraud. There was never an indication in any of my dealings with him that his workshop was organized as a company. I'd think the failure would have to be personal. Don't British companies have to be designated as "Ltd" or "plc" or something?

[larsjohanssonblank]

Hi,
I've too have been waiting for a FW cittern ordered march 2010, and I share the same story as many others (everytime I spoke to and e-mailed Dave the answer was "a couple of weeks") until the bankrupcies mail arrived.
I'm going to try to reclaim the money from my credit card company but a couple of questions arise:
Who is the trustee?
Nobody here has seen Freshwater on the site listing Scottish Insolvencies, what does that mean?

If anyone has some more information to share please do this here.

/Lars - from Gothenburg Sweden

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Daitho - "Don't British companies have to be designated as "Ltd" or "plc" or something ? ". They do if they have 'shareholders'. Dave Freshwater would be most likely considered as a 'sole trader',a totally different animal,subject to different trading laws & tax regulations & with very different liabilities. There's lots of info.on the I'net re. British Co. structures ie.Sole Traders / Partnerships / Limited Liability Companies (LLC's) etc.
Ivan

[Jazz Ad]

I'm disappointed to see this but I can't say I'm surprised.
I ordered a mandocello from him 3 years ago. Great phone contact, too much phone contact actually. A bit pushy, so to say.

I'm in France and he called me 3-4 times while I was thinking about ordering, then 4-5 other times during the building.
I've had interesting conversations with him but all the time I couldn't help thinking, shouldn't he be busy building? Phone calls are expensive.

Delivery was expected to be 2 months, it took almost a year with a lot of unrealistic deadlines given and poor excuses.

I would not say he's a crook though. It's obvious that he's got passion for his craft and tried to give the best.

He cut corners in the wrong areas IMHO. His instruments are good, with just a bit more attention to finish they could have been great and sold for 300-400 more.

So yeah, bad management and hard economic times killed his business.
I'm still happy with my instrument and it's always a joy to play it.

[Crieftan]

Folks - it is official. David Freshwater has been declared bankrupt as of 11 August 2011. Anyone owed money should get in touch with the undernoted: -

Case Ref: 2011/12677

Trustee details
Date appointed: 11/08/2011
Name: Rosemary Winter-Scott
Company Name: Accountant In Bankruptcy
Address: 1, Pennyburn Road, KILWINNING, Ayrshire, KA13 6SA
Phone number: 0300 200 2600
Email: AiBenquiries@aib.gsi.gov.uk

Trustees Agent: Lynne Flower
Company Name: KPMG
Address: Department 811, 191 PO Box 26967, West George Street, GLASGOW, G2 9DX
Phone number: 0141 300 5888
Email: aib@kpmg.co.uk

[Mandotorious]

Thanks, Crieftan. I contacted both people parties you listed, and the first one referred me to the second, so it appears that Lynne Flower is the one to get in touch with.

You all can add me to the list of sad stories: I paid in full for my octave mandolin in September 2009(!), and have been hearing Freshwater's stories about couriers and heavy frost ever since then.

M

[Crieftan]

Sorry to hear that Mandotorious - hopefully you might get something back.

[Mandotorious]

Don't know if anyone's still following this story, but I've got some traction in my efforts to get my money back, and I want the same to be true for many others in my situation. So here are three things that have happened:

First, using the info Crieftan provided above, I eventually got in touch with Lesley Alexander, the person who is in charge of Freshwater's bankruptcy case. Her email address is Lesley.Alexander@kpmg.co.uk, and if you're owed money by David Freshwater, I'd strongly encourage you to get in touch with her. She emailed me back with the proper form to fill out, and today I received a snailmail from her firm showing that my name is in their records as one of Freshwater's creditors. They're still sorting everything out, but his debt to me is at least one of the things they'll sort.

Second, I emailed Freshwater himself explaining my disappointment at having lost both money and mando, but also sympathizing with the loss of his business. I basically wanted to keep on good terms in case he became solvent again and found himself in a position to make reparations. (Also, I genuinely felt bad for him. Maybe he had turned out to be a swindler, I guessed, but you could tell from his instruments that he loved making them. And whatever he had gained, losing that would be hard.) Anyway, as is his way, Dave called me back on the phone the next day. I was teaching, but he left a voicemail stridently insisting that no one was going to lose any money. He sounded angry at the insinuation that he was a crook. He encouraged me to get my credit card people on the case, because he wanted me to get my money back.

Third, I got my credit card people on the case. At first I talked to them on the phone, and they said that I was out of luck because there was no written contract, but I emailed customer service again after hearing Freshwater's voicemail and suggested that it must be possible for me to get money back from someone who wants to give me a refund. They transferred the issue to another department, who promised to investigate it. And a few weeks later, I received a credit on my account for the full amount of the mandolin while they continue the investigation. (That was a surprise: I paid for this instrument two years ago and never carry a balance on the credit card. It was like free--but tentative--money.)

Light at the end of the tunnel? Dunno. But at least there's a tunnel, and at least I seem to be moving in the right direction.

[Ed Goist]

Mandotorious; I applaud your stick-to-ativeness, and the general manner you have gone about this.
Well done.

[allenhopkins]

...Dave called me back on the phone the next day...he left a voicemail stridently insisting that no one was going to lose any money. He sounded angry at the insinuation that he was a crook...

Haven't heard the word "crook" brought up, just an over-his-head business owner who promised product he couldn't deliver. No one seems to think he set out to swindle people, only that as his situation got more serious, he continued to take deposits and payments, and promise delivery of instruments that he was unable to produce. As a result, I'd be surprised if some of his creditors didn't have to settle for a percentage of what they're owed -- i.e., "lose money."