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Thread: Sorting out the Vinaccias

  1. #51

    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    Dear Mick,

    Thank you for your swift reply and information. That certainly illuminates the context of the instrument's making. Also explains the 'fu' Pasquale, which wasn't clear previously. I'm glad that the date relating to Via Chiatamonte was helpful.

    With kind regards, Daisy

  2. #52
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    It definitely looks like a ukulele. The date is 1929? Could've been a one off custom though you never know. People would walk into the shop and just want an instrument. I would love to see more pics of this uke.

    Also can you measure it and post measurements?
    Jim

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  3. #53

    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    Jim,
    Many thanks for your reply and for identifying this as a ukelele.
    The instrument is around 20 inches long and the body is 9 1/2 by 9 inches.
    Sorry not to have replied sooner. I tried to turn on automatic notification for this thread but I can't seem to get it to work properly yet...Anyway many thanks for your help and insight.
    Daisy
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  4. #54
    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    Interesting uke! Looks like it still has the pre-war gut strings.

    Built in a Vinaccia workshop, or was the workshop a wholesaler or retailer of instruments they brought in?

    Same question arises with this violin, recently posted on another forum. Gaetano Vinaccia label, printed for 19th century use, and with the address Rua Catalana no. 46. Actual date isn't legible in the posted photos, but probably a cheap late-19th century French or German import, or possibly a cheap Italian violin of the same period. But there were two famous Vinaccias building violins in Naples in the 18th and early 19th centuries, so the forum discussion got side-tracked over whether this violin was an authentic old treasure, or a fake. Discussion is at:

    http://www.violinist.com/discussion/...e.cfm?ID=27217

    Presumably a dealer's label, not a builder's, and this may give us another angle on the business as it existed in Naples. Here's the best of the photos:

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  5. #55
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Clausen View Post
    Presumably a dealer's label, not a builder's, and this may give us another angle on the business as it existed in Naples. Here's the best of the photos:Click image for larger version. 

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    Here's a Gaetano Vinnacia mandolin and label that I have in my files. It is Rua Catalana 96. Dated 1910. Bruce, can you confirm that what you are seeing is a "46" or is that a typo?

    Pasquale Vinaccia had a place at Rua Catalana 53 with labels including his figli, an address later used by the Fratelli V and also Gennaro V. I need to check where 96 is relative to 53 but it would seem to be in the same neighborhood.

    The examples of Gaetano's work that I have on file show a wide range of stylistic differences between models and years. Was he a maker or a dealer or both? The violin discussion you linked seems to suggest options 2 or 3 might be valid.

    By 1927 Gaetano's labels had him on Via Chiatamone 32 the same address used by the Fratelli V on the attached 1923 label.

    I assumed the Fratelli V at this time were still Gennaro and Achille but perhaps not. See attached example of their label from Rua Catalana 53 dated 1909.

    This, of course, leads us back to the questions Graham asked in his first post on this thread. The Fratelli V (Achille and Gennaro) were apparently deceased at this time and someone (Gaetano?) was minding the store--now back at the Via Chiatamone address. Fratelli V label for things they made and Gaetano V for things they dealt?

    "Sorting out the Vinaccia" indeed. We have a bit of collective work ahead of us .

    Thanks for posting this. A very interesting addition to the thread. I really need to spend some time on the ground in Napoli to help my understanding of all these Vinaccias. The trip would do me a world of good besides.

    Mick
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  6. #56
    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    Hi, Mick. Here's the other label photo posted on Violinist.com. It does look like 46.

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    It was a big family. The violin world knows a Gennaro who flourished in the late 18th century, and a Gaetano whose dates are given as c.1759- c.1831. This Gaetano is said to be the first to build a six-string guitar (instead of 12), but also built violin family instruments. Another Gaetano is identified as the inventor of the Neapolitan mandolin, around 1744. Much confusion and oversimplification, for example here:

    http://www.premiogeminiani.org/conte...63/28/lang,en/

    Turns out there's also an architecture theoretician Gaetano Vinaccia, 1889-1971:

    http://www.gses.it/pionieri/vinaccia.php

  7. #57
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    Sure does, Bruce. Thanks. These folks moved around a lot--or owned a lot of property. Or else had issues with their typesetting.

    I think we have a few Gennaros and Gaetanos in the mix now, as Graham--and the labeling evidence--imply. It is curious that contributions of the earlier Vinaccia sometimes seem clearer to us than the later.

    Bummer on your architect-Vinaccia link. Doesn't seem to be working Can you check that? Never heard of this Gaetano V in my profession. I wonder if he made wine as well....

    Mick
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  8. #58

    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    Bruce - thanks for uploading the label photos - very illuminating.
    Below are the best pictures I can get of the label inside the instrument. Full text is given higher up the thread.It is closest to your label 4 but with handwritten F.llli. Vinaccia at the top.
    Yes the ukulele does seem to still have cat gut strings, although one is rather the worse for wear. Am hoping to take it to a luthier who specialises in ukuleles.
    Daisy
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  9. #59
    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    Good, Daisy. Those strings are probably sheep gut-- you can still get them, but since nylon hit the market in 1948 almost no one wants them.

    Mick's 1909 label mentions the Queen of Italy. Yours from 1929 says the Royal House. Queen Margherita (really Queen Mother by then) died in 1926, so maybe that's when that change was made.

    Mick, sorry about that link. It works fine for me. Gets you to an item in the newsletter of the Gruppo per la storia dell' energia solare. That name might get you there another way.

    And yes, a little field trip to Naples might do us all good.

  10. #60

    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    Thanks Bruce for the information on the strings and references to royal patronage. It would make sense that the reference would change after the death of Queen Margherita and this may help to confirm the instrument I have as late 1920's.
    Daisy

  11. #61
    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    Just noticed Mick's 1923 label above. Same info as yours, Daisy, and the same street address, but with the reference to Margherita replaced. So it does look like they had to make that change after she died.

    I love the signatures on that label. Two people have each signed "Vinaccia Brothers", one across the bottom and the other using the two side margins. Presumably by 1923 the brothers themselves (the two that were "fu Pasquale") were long gone.

  12. #62

    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    Bruce, I'm sure that is right about Margerita. Love the label too. However the 29-er still has "fu P.LE & Co." on so wonder if P.LE still signifies Pasquale and if so why it's included?
    Daisy

  13. #63
    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    Daisy, check out post 20 in this thread for a summary. Briefly, Pasquale (d. 1885) was the patriarch. Some labels show Pasquale and Sons. Then we see Fratelli Vinaccia labels that identify the brothers as Gennaro and Achille "fu Pasquale" (sons of the late Pasquale). But after a while those names are dropped from the labels and the expression Fratelli Vinaccia becomes simply a brand name. We assume that Gennaro and Achille were no longer living or no longer active at this point. But old Pasquale is still remembered on the labels as the founder of the business.

  14. #64

    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    Bruce - that makes sense that Pasquale would be honoured as the founder of the business. Thank you for that insight. I have read entry 20 but my instrument comes after its last listing of Gaetano Vinaccia II at 32 Via Chiatamone in 1927, so I am happy to take F.lli. Vinaccia as a brand name. Good to know the label still honours the founder, though.
    Daisy

  15. #65
    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    Time to revive this old thread, there's a 1937 (?) Vinaccia on eBay at present.

    Label has:

    F'llli Vinaccia Fu P.le & Co

    and

    Via S. Sebastiano 35 Napoli.

    It's also signed by a Vinaccia, but I can't read which

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  16. #66
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavy View Post

    It's also signed by a Vinaccia, but I can't read which
    As far as I can tell, it was signed "Fratelli Vinaccia." I assume whoever was around signed a bunch of labels. Unless we engage the services of a handwriting expert or find descendants of the family who were around back then, we will never know.

  17. #67
    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    As far as I can tell, it was signed "Fratelli Vinaccia." I assume whoever was around signed a bunch of labels. Unless we engage the services of a handwriting expert or find descendants of the family who were around back then, we will never know.
    I fear you are correct: could have been signed by the janitor for all we can tell!

  18. #68

    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    1940's are not that far away yet, so there must be people who know the answer in Napoli. Just a matter of asking around there I guess. There are a couple of shops nearby that have something to do to with musical instruments that still run the business, like Galleria Milletti, for instance. I think they are actually took over the premises Vinaccia used to have (or next door at least) I tried to work out via google street view, but it is not easy.

    https://www.facebook.com/Galleria-Mi...8941878276022/

  19. #69
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    Thanks, Victor. Great "Timeline" collection of photos on the Miletti FB page

    Here is a link to the Miletti site itself with images from an exhibit in 2012 in Amalfi, it seems.

    Mick
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  20. #70

    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    Recently on ebay, card addressed to Gaetano Vinaccia.

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  21. #71
    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    Cool! Seems to be a message of cordial thanks for some atto generoso. A collector probably took the stamp long ago.

    I find at least one modern Corrado Sontini (in Milan), but none from 1924.

    Wonder if it's addressed to the luthier or the architect? Do we know the address from anywhere?

  22. #72

    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    It is definitely addressed to the luthier. The address is correct for Vinaccia shop in 1920's-30's (Via Chiatamone 32) It was probably Gaetano that minded the business until it's end in early 1940's.

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  24. #73

    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    Quote Originally Posted by vic-victor View Post
    Recently on ebay, card addressed to Gaetano Vinaccia.

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    That is an interesting find: a postcard containing a picture of the Italian "Alcatraz" (on Asinara island), apparently dispatched from Asinara.
    There was a certain Camorra member by the name of Corrado Sortini on trial for murder etc. in Italy in 1911. Coincidences ? Both the Camorra and bb mandolin building are traditional Neapolitan phenomena.
    Last edited by plinkey; Jul-18-2016 at 3:57am.
    Bona fide dilettante

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  26. #74

    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    Interesting. I always thought that sucessful businesses in both Napoli and Catania could not go unnoticed by local mafia at that time.
    Last edited by vic-victor; Jul-18-2016 at 5:09am.

  27. #75

    Default Re: Sorting out the Vinaccias

    Quote Originally Posted by vic-victor View Post
    Interesting. I always thought that sucessful businesses in both Napoli and Catania could no go unnoticed by local mafia at that time.
    Victor, one major reason for the tenacity of those "honorable associations" was that they permeated into every segment of the society. The postcard you have discovered opens a door to some fascinating speculations and research by history buffs.
    Bona fide dilettante

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