Would you like to memorize the "Parking Lot Picker's Songbook"?

[JonZ]

That is still a pretty good chunk of tunes. My hat's off.

[SincereCorgi]

Incidentally, I started using some of those imagery-based word recall strategies and found that they work really well. I haven't memorized any pieces of furniture yet, I just take a phonetically-similar object and attach it to the first couple words of a verse. This helps with recall, but didn't make it much faster to actually learn them.

[JeffD]

Yea its fiddle tunes. Sorry.

I am not a singer.

[JeffD]

That is still a pretty good chunk of tunes. My hat's off.

First I have been doing this forever. And tunes have been a passion for most of that time.

And second, like I mentioned, for what ever reason I have a knack for remembering sequences, I can't not remember them. Little things like phone numbers, zip codes, credit card numbers, passwords, any sequence I decide to remember I generally do remember forever, with little or no review. I would trade that skill for good looking and rich in a blink.

[JonZ]

I am a little ways into this now, so it is time for some reflection and modification.

First, it would be stupid to memorize the whole book. There are songs in it I don't like, and life is short. I am thinking 50 that I would actually like to play is a good goal. I am going to chose my top 25, giving special consideration to songs that are not in C or G, and start from there.

The spaced repetition/house mnemonic combination is working great for memorizing lyrics. The house mnemonic is particularly useful for reviewing a song right before you go to sleep or while driving--no need to peek at notes.

I am going to learn the chords to the songs in open, chop, and 1st, 2nd, and 3rd inversion to gain facility in each voicing. This might seem like a lot, but once you have the progression memorized, learning the variations is easy.

I am going to learn the melodies in open and all FFcP positions. I will practice each melody card in the original key, and a "key of the week", going around the circle of 5ths, to gain familiarity with all of the scale positions. I think this would be a good intermediate exercise for anyone who has practiced Ted Echliman's major scale exercises and wants to start using them to play by ear.

So, in summary, I am focusing on fewer songs and more techniques.

[catmandu2]

I am a little ways into this now, so it is time for some reflection and modification.

First, it would be stupid to memorize the whole book.

I think you've come to a more practical approach. Some tunes are so similar to others...a goal of this quantity will invariably present challenges of repetition/boredom anyway. Developing skill at reading notation--and cultivating a repertoire, instead, of articulation, ornamentation, phrasing--is a more efficacious approach, IMO. This way, you can still access the "whole book" at amy time.

With regard to chord inversions, I suggest learning the basic forms: 3 maj/min; 4 7th, dim and aug. IMO, this is fundamental.

[JonZ]

By the way, I am averaging a song a week, completely memorized. I have been using the "house mnemonic" for about a week, and I think it will increase the pace significantly.

[John Flynn]

I applaud this effort, I really do wish you all well and I will be anxious to see how it works out. Maybe I will be convinced by your success. However, I am personally not going to participate for the following reasons. These only apply to me, so no one should be discouraged by this, but I offer it only as food for thought:

> I have tried ANKI for something previously. I found it annoying and not at all useful. Maybe I didn't fully understand it, but anything that is supposed to be that simple, but which actually needs a lot of explanation is not well designed, IMHO. (BTW, I am no Luddite: I work in the enterprise software field.)

> With all due respect to Mr. Bruce, the tunes and arrangements he plays in his parking lot are not the ones we play in the parking lots I play at. I will stay focused on what I want to learn, not what some book tells me. I find being self-directed on tune selection is a powerful learning aid. I will learn best what I really want to learn.

> From what I've read up on "spaced repetition," it seems to be a "high-falootin" version of "learn a tune you want to play and then go to jams and play it the heck out of it." This is how these tunes have been passed on for decades and how I have been doing it for years. New terminology does not equal innovation.

Just my two cents, and worth every penny!

[manwithnoname]

Just a thought, but for the music to sound, feel, and just be organic and authentic, I would think that the practice has to be at least somewhat organic and authentic too. All the structured methods being discussed here sort of marginalize the soul and the cultural aspect of the music. The whole point kind of gets lost in the mechanics.

As some jazz drummer said in an interview once, and I paraphrase, jazz was cooler when it was just the music people played in the bordellos and juke joints, than it is now that it's formally studied.

At some point, paraphrasing Jethro here, you have to just play.

[CES]

Jon,

Props for the effort. I know you catch some flack for your extensive analysis of the learning process on occasion, but the effort is laudible. I get too annoyed with "processes" to commit like you do to these methods (my fault, not the processes themselves), but do recognize that my practice time needs more structure...

At any rate, good luck with this effort!

[SincereCorgi]

By the way, I am averaging a song a week, completely memorized. I have been using the "house mnemonic" for about a week, and I think it will increase the pace significantly.

This is where I'm curious about the Anki reinforcement- it's not that big a deal if you remember the song you learned two weeks ago, but if you still have all the words of all 48 (!) songs by that time, that will be pretty impressive.

[JonZ]

John Flynn--You make some interesting comments.

Anki is simple in some ways and complicated in others. It can get tricky when you are dealing with media. However, I invested some time up front, and have come up with some ways to create cards rather quickly. I can generally create all of the cards necessary for a song--lyrics, chords, scales--in about 10 minutes. I can usually find the lyrics on the internet, and then just cut and paste.

I agree about the song choices, which is why I have decided to back down on the number of songs. There are plenty of gems in there, but certainly not for everyone. I do similar types of practice during my "regular" practice time: blues, fiddle tunes, and songs I just like. As I said, I am doing a little experiment to see how much I can remember in 10 min a day. Obviously, the lyrics are the hardest part.

I don't know if I would agree with your analogy. But I have given thought to how spaced repetition can be done without the technology. For example, I have read that runners can estimate their effort well enough to structure an optimal heart rate workout, without a heart rate monitor. It is possible that people could effectively estimate when to review. On the other hand, people do a lot of dumb things when they practice, like practicing the same thing every day, or playing through a whole tune over and over when only two measures need work.

Of course, the longer you do this, the more difficult it gets to manage all of the information that needs review. That is why the program was originally developed. For example, I am working on "Classic Blues Fiddle" tunes. Let's assume that the average song has six phrases that need to be learned, and that I am able to keep up with my reviews and add three new cards a day by practicing one hour a day. After a year, I would know 182 songs. Keep going for a few years, and you are juggling a lot of information.

This is just a theoretical example; my actual practice has been very eclectic--scales, picking, lyrics, chords--that is why I am doing this small, focused experimnent. It would be interesting to try something similar with only fiddle tunes or a Real Book.

Manwithnoname--Talking about soul gets a little slippery. I do try to stop and think about what is of essential musical importance on each item.

I completely understand that this is not a method for everyone. Though I am guessing that if some of the technological difficulty could be removed, more people would like it. People are very busy, and just don't have time to learn a new technology. To really get into this with sheet music, you need a scanner and imaging software; it can be a bit much if you aren't used to these tools.

[John Flynn]

As I understand the goals here, it is to learn tunes/songs quickly and remember them for a long time. It strikes me that this approach is kind of a "left brain" (rational, logical, scientific) approach, which is great, nothing wrong with that. Just as a counterpoint, FWIW, here is my own "right brain" (creative, emotional) approach to the same goals. It has worked well for me. I learn a song/tune faster and remember it longer if:

> It is a tune I really like.

> My learning is based on an arrangement/interpretation of the tune I especially like.

> I learn it either by ear, or from "I play, then you play" teaching from a good instructor, rather than notation or tab

> I am prepping the tune to play at a jam - double that effect if I am prepping it to perform for an audience

> I learn to sing the tune before I learn to play it - if it is only a tune, then singing nonsense syllables, if a song, then the actual lyrics

When I was taking lessons, jamming every week and playing in a contra dance band, I was getting three tunes a week up to speed. There are tunes for which I have hit all of the factors above and these are tunes I will likely never forget as long as I live. There are tunes maybe I only hit half of the above. For those I may not be able to play them all on demand, but I can get them back in a few minutes practice or if they are called at a jam, I will get up to speed with them after a few go-arounds.

My one left brain hint is: I used to keep a list of tunes I know and when the last time was I played each one - If it had been a while on a tune, I would do a few run-thoughs at home and then call it at the next jam I went to. I should probably start doing that again. It worked pretty well.

[JonZ]

I think we have some different musical goals, and that you are more advanced than me. So it is difficult to compare.

I don't see the differences as primarily right v. left brain. Spaced-repetition is about how you schedule your reviews. There are a lot of different ways that you could incorporate your techniques on a spaced-repetition schedule.

I am trying to find the proper balance between practicing what I love, and what I should, and definitely moving more toward the love. (Awwwww!)

However, watching my kids learn violin, where there is a strong tradition of "studies" that that may not rock your world, but focus on specific techniques, keys, and such, I do see value in "eating my musical veggies" too.

[catmandu2]

Jon, what ages are your kids, if I may ask? I'm generally curious--since I teach a fair amount. I'm currently working with two groups of preschoolers--ages 1 through about 6--and I'm doing mostly fundamental rhythmic work. I've taught ukulele to children this age, but never violin (although I do play fiddle myself). How are they doing and how long have they been at it?

[JonZ]

My kids are 11 and 13. They both started at 3 and made minimal progress until they were maybe 8. I think the only benefit of starting that early is that they cannot remember not practicing. We never made heavy practice demands, but we were consistent.

A benefit of the violin for youngsters is 1/16th size instruments. Uke is probably a good one too.

They both play well enough that it is a pleasure for them and their listeners, but they are not playing advanced material. The younger has decided to learn double bass too. The older dabbles in many stringed instruments. He has recently been committing more of his own time to practicing the violin.

Occasionally they busk at the Farmers Market. People throw in more money when they see an 11-year old thumping on a big, double bass.

They are both at the "Texas Style Fiddle Camp" this week, in East Texas.

[catmandu2]

Yes, the scaled sizes are advantageous. But the rest of violin--kids sawing away like little carpenters with their little bows--is so difficult, a teacher has to be dedicated to hear that. There is something to be said for early exposure to the physicality and ergonomics. But, when I started fiddling in my 20s I was aware of what sounded good and what sounded horrible, so making rapid adjustments based on immediate feedback was easy--which is really what "bowing" and thus violin/fiddle is all about. I wonder how advantageous it is for little ones to saw away with little awareness of the subtler aspects of bowing for long periods--maybe years. Perhaps after a few years of this, it's easier to make the subtler adjustments--with specific instruction. Hmm..

In my classroom setting -- 8 to about 14 kids -- I use percussion-based instruction starting with basic counting, coordination, then musical elements and eventually learning the various Latin elements and figures. It's easy for the kids to engage as they all like drumming, there's a variety of instruments/sounds/parts, and it's fun.

Thanks for the info. Sounds like your kds are having fun.

But careful with that bass--it could lead to jazz

[Mike Bunting]

........ giving special consideration to songs that are not in C or G, and start from there..

I am curious about one thing. How are you determining what keys the songs are in? If it is just by the key they are in, in the book, are you aware that doesn't mean that the song must be sung in that key. The singer sings in the key that best suits their voice. I keep seeing such references that "song A" is a G song whereas it is a song in whatever key the singer chooses. I don't know how much this applies to you but I noticed that one of the learning modules mentioned you included scales as a facet of the tune you are learning. I'm hoping that it would be a scale in the key in which you sing the song. I wonder if a person wouldn't be better served to use your system to focus on the scales themselves to provide a basis in learning songs. It would seem that you would be scuppered if someone called a tune that he/she wants to sing in Eb and you learned to play only in G. Also, would it be possible to you the system to teach you to hear the changes by ear. If you memorized the changes to Will the Circle Be Unbroken, would you be able to recognize them if someone started playing When I Lay my Burden Down or would that song have to be entered into the system to be memorized even though the progression is the same?
I just trying to understand the system.